Kevin Love or Blake Griffin debate

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#1 Jun 4, 2018 8:51am
V-Ice
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Kevin Love or Blake Griffin debate

As I see it now, clearly KLove is a more polish better overall player than Blake. I didn’t think that a few years ago, but I do now.
Jun 4, 2018 9:03am
mannycoon
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Marcin Gortat is more polish than either of them.
Jun 4, 2018 9:31am
trapp76
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They're both way overpaid. Wouldn't want either on my roster.

Jun 4, 2018 9:40am
ClipperSisyphus
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But the ceiling on both of them is the #2 guy on a playoff team.

Someone pointed out in another thread that the league has only 7 franchise players: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Greek and Davis. Everyone else who has made an all star game in the last two years would be in the #2 tier, except for the defensive centers like DJ, Gobert, Capela, Whiteside, etc. who are #3 tier.

We saw that teams with 2 #2s like POR and TOR crumble when they go up against superstars.

Jun 4, 2018 10:47am
JGlanton
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V-Ice wrote:

Glad you finally came to your senses.  They are different players of course, but Love has always been a better player than Blake.  Blake was always the amazing athlete with unlimited upside, but that potential was never realized.  Instead Blake was a guy whose FG% and rebounding rate went down over his career as he "developed", and even his best seasons weren't as good as Love's career average.

Jun 4, 2018 11:11am
V-Ice
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I’ll take Kawhi over both Westbrook and Harden any day.
Jun 4, 2018 11:46am
tullabye
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V-Ice wrote:
Lets see how things shake out. I think Blake is better and expect him to have a bounce back season. Will be interested in seeing if his athleticism is renewed or if he stays as a mediocre outside shooter thinking he has a three point shot.
Jun 4, 2018 11:55am
ClipperSisyphus
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tullabye wrote:
V-Ice wrote:
Lets see how things shake out. I think Blake is better and expect him to have a bounce back season. Will be interested in seeing if his athleticism is renewed or if he stays as a mediocre outside shooter thinking he has a three point shot.

Blake had to move his game to the outside. He is too small to try to dominate in the paint, especially as his athleticism declined. He is a great passer and his FT and 3PT shooting has improved. He needs to be in a ball movement system so he doesn't spend too much time on iso ball.

Jun 4, 2018 11:57am
Hitnrun24
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Love is a pretty good player, I think he is definitely someone that can help you win and gets a bad rap at times. I think his defense has improved a lot too, he has weaknesses and now that bigs have to switch on to guards it's made defense tougher. He used to have almost no chance, but now when I watch him he really does ok.

 

He's a much better rebounder than Blake and his offensive skills fit the current game better as well. It's funny how the comparison between these two has flipped multiple times. Blake was clearly ahead of him a few years ago, but Love is just easier to fit into most teams with his 3 point shooting.

Jun 4, 2018 12:06pm
JGlanton
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tullabye wrote:
V-Ice wrote:
Lets see how things shake out. I think Blake is better and expect him to have a bounce back season. Will be interested in seeing if his athleticism is renewed or if he stays as a mediocre outside shooter thinking he has a three point shot.

I don't see why he will bounce back. He's been on this downward trend for years. I do think his DET performance was an anomaly and hope he will at least improve on his dismal season at DET with his 43% shooting and 6.6 rebs/gm.  That's shooting like JJ Barea and Andrew Wiggins crying. That's less boards than Lonzo Ball!frown

Jun 4, 2018 12:13pm
tullabye
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I think when you are playing with either DJ or Drummond your rebound rate will be less than if you play with Brook Lopez. He does need to attack the boards and put on a bit of weight. He got leaner and leaner and loss body mass which hurt his game I think.
Jun 4, 2018 12:18pm
mannycoon
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Blake needs to attack the basket and get to the foul line. Hes not a good enough shooter to get away with being just a jump shooter. He can't jump over everyone anymore, so he needs more craftiness and guile near the basket, to shield defenders and get calls.
Jun 4, 2018 12:29pm
JGlanton
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mannycoon wrote:
Blake needs to attack the basket and get to the foul line. Hes not a good enough shooter to get away with being just a jump shooter. He can't jump over everyone anymore, so he needs more craftiness and guile near the basket, to shield defenders and get calls.

He has not done what he "needs to do" for many seasons now.  

Jun 4, 2018 12:31pm
trapp76
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mannycoon wrote:
Blake needs to attack the basket and get to the foul line. Hes not a good enough shooter to get away with being just a jump shooter. He can't jump over everyone anymore, so he needs more craftiness and guile near the basket, to shield defenders and get calls.

He can't take the pounding, he'll get hurt. It's a catch 22.

Jun 4, 2018 12:47pm
JGlanton
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tullabye wrote:
I think when you are playing with either DJ or Drummond your rebound rate will be less than if you play with Brook Lopez.

Blake's rebound rate dropped from 15.3 to 9.6 over the time he played with DJ then Drummond.   He's just not making the effort like he used to.  Love in his reduced physcial capacity still manages 15.9 while he shoots a fuckton of 3-pt shots. Of course when he led the league in rebounding his rate was at 20.3.  It's not fair to compare Blake to a superior rebounder like Love, but big Blake should never be below league average. That's just embarassing!

The answer isn't in his weight or who he is playing with. The answer is in the picture of Blake standing around in empty space watching the balls fall from the sky. 

Jun 4, 2018 12:57pm
htownfan
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V-Ice wrote:
I’ll take Kawhi over both Westbrook and Harden any day.

A healthy Leonard.....yes...but unfortunately....

Jun 4, 2018 2:47pm
CorkScrew
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ClipperSisyphus wrote:

He is a great passer and his FT and 3PT shooting has improved

 

This is only true if you add "for a big" to the sentence. But if he's not going to play as a big, then his passing and shooting is mediocre at best.

When he started to work on his shooting, it was never advertized as transitioning away from the paint, it was supposed to be in addition to it. It was all about the Karl Malone comparison. Then he stayed away from the paint, didn't develop his post moves and reduced his collecting of rebounds, and it was said he was "saving himself for the playoffs." Then he would get into the playoffs and still trying to play like a SF, which he sucks at.

Blake's only hope at this point, now that he is losing his athleticism, is if he can somehow become a reliable 40%+ 3pt shooter, commit to averaging 12-13 rebounds a game, get his assists rate average up to 7-8, and commit to being an intense, relentless defender.

Not gonna happen.

... Oh, and stay healthy...

 

Jun 4, 2018 3:29pm
VFHS
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How people are watching Kevin Love in these playoffs and praising him is beyond me. He's been trash. Even when he manages to pad a decent amount of points and rebounds, he still gets torched defensively. He was never that great, he just built a reputation from padding empty stats on bad Minnesota teams where the pressure and spotlight was never on him.
Jun 5, 2018 3:14pm
nuraman00
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mannycoon wrote:
Marcin Gortat is more polish than either of them.

 

Good post.

Jun 5, 2018 3:15pm
nuraman00
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ClipperSisyphus wrote:

But the ceiling on both of them is the #2 guy on a playoff team.

Someone pointed out in another thread that the league has only 7 franchise players: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Greek and Davis. Everyone else who has made an all star game in the last two years would be in the #2 tier, except for the defensive centers like DJ, Gobert, Capela, Whiteside, etc. who are #3 tier.

We saw that teams with 2 #2s like POR and TOR crumble when they go up against superstars.


Gobert is somwhere between a # 1 and # 2.

Jun 5, 2018 3:16pm
nuraman00
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ClipperSisyphus wrote:

But the ceiling on both of them is the #2 guy on a playoff team.

Someone pointed out in another thread that the league has only 7 franchise players: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Greek and Davis. Everyone else who has made an all star game in the last two years would be in the #2 tier, except for the defensive centers like DJ, Gobert, Capela, Whiteside, etc. who are #3 tier.

We saw that teams with 2 #2s like POR and TOR crumble when they go up against superstars.

 

I would swap out Durant or Curry (probably Durant) with Leonard.

Jun 5, 2018 3:18pm
nuraman00
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tullabye wrote:
I think when you are playing with either DJ or Drummond your rebound rate will be less than if you play with Brook Lopez. He does need to attack the boards and put on a bit of weight. He got leaner and leaner and loss body mass which hurt his game I think.

 

But the Clippers were one of the worst rebounding teams in the league, the past few years.  So there were rebounds to be had.

 

For example, they were 28th in defensive rebounding.  So everyone should have been getting more rebounds.

 

If the Clippers were even around 18th or so in rebounding, then I wouldn't look at individual rebounding numbers as much.

 

 

Jun 5, 2018 3:31pm
Clipps
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Neither player are any more valuable than eachother on the basketball court. Both are betas. Both are absolute terrible defenders both on the perimeter and in the post, although Kevin Love does manage to stay in front of Curry whenever he gets switched on him. Blake would either get blown by or Steph would just nail one in his eye. Both have shown to be rebounding machines but don't anymore. I think Love has more of a polished offensive game. Blake is better with making plays as long as he doesn't get raddled. Blake has the rediculous contract, though. Both are dissapointments when you consider their hype as rookies and 2nd year players... Both were considered the next great bigs. Neither are worth thinking about if you are a team in need of a veteran big.

Jun 5, 2018 3:56pm
nuraman00
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There was pressure to not be be a part teams that won less than 24 games, and to not be a part of the longest active playoffs drought, in Minnesota.

 

When Love is aggressive on offense, he's ok.

 

His playoffs FG% this year isn't good.  But he's rebounding very well, and is shooting 92.7% on FTs, so he's doing some positive things.

Jun 5, 2018 3:59pm
nuraman00
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Clipps wrote:

Neither player are any more valuable than eachother on the basketball court. Both are betas. Both are absolute terrible defenders both on the perimeter and in the post, although Kevin Love does manage to stay in front of Curry whenever he gets switched on him. Blake would either get blown by or Steph would just nail one in his eye. Both have shown to be rebounding machines but don't anymore. I think Love has more of a polished offensive game. Blake is better with making plays as long as he doesn't get raddled. Blake has the rediculous contract, though. Both are dissapointments when you consider their hype as rookies and 2nd year players... Both were considered the next great bigs. Neither are worth thinking about if you are a team in need of a veteran big.

 

I don't know about if they were considered great.

 

There was a debate as to who was better, Griffin, Love, or Aldridge.  Each player had some pros and cons.

 

Aldridge had the most refined moves, but was the worst rebounder.

 

Griffin was the most physical and the best passer.

 

Love was the best rebounder and passer.

 

To me, neither was better than average on defense, but people usually ignored defensive impact.

Jun 6, 2018 5:20pm
Hitnrun24
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Bigs who can't guard the perimeter are being less and less useful with how the game is played now so part of it is not their fault. Blake could actually have the tools to be pretty good at it, but he doesn't have the focus or stamina to do it. When he was on the Clippers he'd do ok at first, but whenever the 3rd or 4th quarter came around and he was on a switch he would be pretty much completely upright and easy to blow by.

 

I think a big part of the problem is there's almost no such thing as a moving screen anymore so teams can just screen over and over to force a switch. Guys used to have to fight over switches, but if you try it now you will give up wide open shots.