Honest question for CP3's apologists

96 posts / 0 new
Last post
May 1, 2017 7:28am
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

ClipperSisyphus wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

If you want to talk trade value, I would trade CP in a second for AD, Embiid, Greek or KAT, maybe even Porzingis. These are all young guys you can build around and have a good 10 year run.

And who wouldn't trade an oft-injured aging 32-year for an up and coming talent with a world of potential?  None of those teams would trade with you though.......

May 1, 2017 8:03am
mannycoon
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 31 min ago
Joined: Nov 2, 2011

I would definitely not trade Paul for Embiid, guy has played 786 minutes in 3 seasons.

May 1, 2017 8:22am
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

mannycoon wrote:

I would definitely not trade Paul for Embiid, guy has played 786 minutes in 3 seasons.

I give you that...the big IF he can stay healthy changes all of that though.....

May 1, 2017 8:33am
pro100
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 6 min ago
Joined: Jan 17, 2012

mannycoon wrote:

I would definitely not trade Paul for Embiid, guy has played 786 minutes in 3 seasons.

 

Wow I don't know about this statement. If Embiid can stay healthy he's a  MVP canidate. He's basically Patrick Ewing on offense and Mutombo on defense. Shoots the three, inside post moves-footwork, and knocks down free throws. F*ck it, I would trade CP3 for Embiid in a heartbeat then flip DJ for some wings.

I know he has injuries but so does CP3 and Embiid changes the entire game on both ends of the floor and is younger.

May 1, 2017 8:44am
mannycoon
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 31 min ago
Joined: Nov 2, 2011

pro100 wrote:

I know he has injuries but so does CP3

As if their injury histories are remotely comparable.  Again 786 minutes in three seasons.  He was on a strict minutes restriction and rest schedule and still only played 31 games after missing two entire seasons.  Maybe after he's played as many minutes as Greg Oden I'll feel differently.

May 1, 2017 9:36am
trapp76
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 7 min ago
Joined: Oct 28, 2011

ClipperSisyphus wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

If you want to talk trade value, I would trade CP in a second for AD, Embiid, Greek or KAT, maybe even Porzingis. These are all young guys you can build around and have a good 10 year run.

Trade value is an entirely different thing.

May 1, 2017 9:39am
trapp76
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 7 min ago
Joined: Oct 28, 2011

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

Remember that game 6 wasn't a clinching win. He was still the MVP of that series.

LOL. Josh Smith and Corey Brewer were the co-MVPs of that series. 

May 1, 2017 9:40am
trapp76
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 7 min ago
Joined: Oct 28, 2011

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

All 3 guys have averaged at least 29.0 in a season which is 10 more points than Cp3 has ever averaged while playing with the Clippers. 

Don't give me counting stats, give me efficiency stats.........then tell me those guys are still better overall (offense and defense) players than CP. 

Lebron, Durant and that's it.

May 1, 2017 11:05am
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

trapp76 wrote:

Don't give me counting stats, give me efficiency stats.........then tell me those guys are still better overall (offense and defense) players than CP. 

Lebron, Durant and that's it.

Harden and Curry are both efficient so I don't know what you are talking about?  Westbrook not so much but all 3 have been way more efficient and inefficient where it counts, in the Western conf finals and the NBA finals.  Can't compare notes here......

Not mad at you for sticking with your player but man  really?  He just cannot carry a team anywhere deep in the playoffs.......

May 1, 2017 11:57am
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

 He did  cement the win with his stellar play in game 7 when he had to close out the series, Remember that game 6 wasn't a clinching win. He was still the MVP of that series.

 

 

There is no difference in coming up big in a game 7 or a game 6 when your team is in a win or be eliminated game. I don't get why people focus on game 7 being the all important game compared to a win or go home game 6. There would have been no game 7 if a million to 1 odds didn't happen in game 6. Chris has arguably never had the good fortune of having a shitty game and the team giving him another chance to have a good game and they move on. In that respect he's been one of the unluckier superstars. 

May 1, 2017 12:24pm
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 11 hours 52 min ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Game 7 in this series was at home. And not only did we manage to lose at home, we lost by the sixth-worst margin in the history of home Game 7 losses. So yes, it does matter more than Game 6.

May 1, 2017 12:33pm
V-Ice
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 12 min ago
Joined: Nov 27, 2011

3 home losses in a playoff series is just not good. That is sad and embarrassing...

May 1, 2017 1:11pm
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

Hitnrun24 wrote:

There is no difference in coming up big in a game 7 or a game 6 when your team is in a win or be eliminated game. I don't get why people focus on game 7 being the all important game compared to a win or go home game 6. There would have been no game 7 if a million to 1 odds didn't happen in game 6. Chris has arguably never had the good fortune of having a shitty game and the team giving him another chance to have a good game and they move on. In that respect he's been one of the unluckier superstars. 

You do remember that there also was game 5 before that game 6 as well right?  Harden played well in game 5 and game 7 both win or go home games.  Even though he was 5-20 in Game 6 he still had 23 points and didnt play the 4th quarter.  What does it say about Chris Paul that he couldn't close the deal when he had way more talented team and a 3-1 lead?  That series was more than that lucky quarter...That series was about heart and grit.  It was also about choking a lead in more ways than one. You want say it was million to 1 luck to win game 6?  Was it also that to win game 5 and game 7?

I would say Chris Paul had great luck that his teammates gave him an opportunity to rejoin the series tied at 1-1 and not in a hole of 2-0 that series to give him a chance to have a good game and move on...but noooooooo.....

And please don't talk about Cp3 not having the good fortune because the teams he has been on all have had talent.  he's played with 2 other all stars in Clipperland and 2 all stars in New Orleans so please spare us the poor CP3 song... He is a hall of fame player but like Tracy Mcgrady he just doesn't get it done.

And like someone said above....3 home losses against utah?

May 1, 2017 1:30pm
Clippers1121
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 3 min ago
Joined: Nov 15, 2011

Chris Paul was the crunch time guy on two Olympic gold medal teams.  He was used as the closer in those games.  He can get it done.  He just needs a lot of help to do it.  Which this Clippers team has not given him.  The game one loss was all on Blake Griffin.  Game five was Jamal Crawford and his two for eight and Austin Rivers only getting two.  Gave seven was pretty much on CP3 and I will give you that one.

May 1, 2017 1:45pm
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 11 hours 52 min ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Good luck assembling an Olympic roster in the NBA so CP0 can finally "get it done" as the closer. Not even the Warriors are that stacked.

May 1, 2017 1:56pm
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

Clippers1121 wrote:

Chris Paul was the crunch time guy on two Olympic gold medal teams.  He was used as the closer in those games.  He can get it done.  He just needs a lot of help to do it.  Which this Clippers team has not given him.  The game one loss was all on Blake Griffin.  Game five was Jamal Crawford and his two for eight and Austin Rivers only getting two.  Gave seven was pretty much on CP3 and I will give you that one.

Man you are really reaching aren't you?. You bringing up the dream team? .so you are saying CP3 has to have the best players in the world and playing inferior teams to get it done?  He can't carry a team on his own?  That doesn't sound like a superstar. His gold medals were so long ago I cant even remember if that is the truth about him being the crunchtime guy.  I do remember him playing on the FIBA team that got the BRonze medal though.

May 1, 2017 2:14pm
nuraman00
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 43 min ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

htownfan wrote:

Clippers1121 wrote:

Chris Paul was the crunch time guy on two Olympic gold medal teams.  He was used as the closer in those games.  He can get it done.  He just needs a lot of help to do it.  Which this Clippers team has not given him.  The game one loss was all on Blake Griffin.  Game five was Jamal Crawford and his two for eight and Austin Rivers only getting two.  Gave seven was pretty much on CP3 and I will give you that one.

Man you are really reaching aren't you?. You bringing up the dream team? .so you are saying CP3 has to have the best players in the world and playing inferior teams to get it done?  He can't carry a team on his own?  That doesn't sound like a superstar. His gold medals were so long ago I cant even remember if that is the truth about him being the crunchtime guy.  I do remember him playing on the FIBA team that got the BRonze medal though.

 

If you mean the Olympics, that was 2004, before he was drafted.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

 

If you mean the 2006 one, then yes, Paul, Joe Johnson, Elton Brand, were on it.  They lost to Greece in the SF.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIBA_World_Championship_squads#USA

 

May 1, 2017 2:28pm
nuraman00
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 43 min ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

I wouldn't put Durant on that list.  I've documented his turnovers, lack of ability to create shots for others or handle the ball, for years.  

 

In 2011 I pointed out how Gerald Wallace lead a 4th quarter comeback by driving on Durant repeatedly.  His defense wasn't much until he joined the Warriors, and even then he doesn't have to do much, just not get Wallaced.  Green takes the biggest challenge defensively.

 

In 2010 or 2011, I posted 2 different game-winning plays Pierce had against New York.  In one, he ran a pick and pop with Garnett and passed to him for the GW.  In another, same play, except he drive for the GW.  Durant can't create his shot, nor pass to others like that.  The example was specifically comparing Durant's lack of ball handling with Pierce.

 

Here's the post:

 

http://www.clippertalk.com/comment/78937#comment-78937

 

Here's an earlier 2012 version of the post, with the same videos:

 

http://www.clippertalk.com/comment/8898#comment-8898

 

These comments were made well before Durant joined the Warriors.

 

On a separate topic, Leonard still doesn't compare with me to the older generation wing players defensively.  He doesn't guard the best player for most of the game.  He spends a lot of time going for rebounds, and only guards the other best player (Conley Jr. for Memphis) situationally.  Not many guard the other team's best player for a majority of the game, which is disappointing.

 

Lebron guarded Paul George a little more frequently, but still not too my liking.  We'll see what he does with DeRozan this round.

 

Other matchups I want to see are how much Harden and Leonard guard each other; and if Draymond guards Hayward and if Hill or Johnson guard one of the Warriors guards.

 

I didn't pay attention to how much Wall and Thomas guarded each other yesterday, as I wasn't watching as closely.  I was trying not to think too much, given that there was another game coming up where I'd think harder.

May 1, 2017 2:43pm
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

How many players does Paul play with that play better or even up to their regular season? I mean it's normal to have 1-2 rotation guys have a few off games when the lights get brighter, but he's having to overcome multiple guys being completely worthless for practically entire series. We talk a lot about the Bledsoe trade around here, but that was at least one guy who totally stepped up his game in the postseason.

May 1, 2017 2:45pm
nuraman00
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 43 min ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

I also think a different question would be whether you build a team with 3 max money players like the Clippers, or try for a more balanced starting five like what Memphis, Utah have.  Washington also seems to have some semi expensive FAs in the frontcourt with Gortat and Morris.  Those guys are more than MLE players, that's what I'm trying to say.

 

On another topic, they went to Jordan's hook shot during the first play of game 4.  That was the last time they did it.  As I've mentioned, after running it more frequently from 2012-2015, they've barely used it after resigning him in 2015.  They don't use him to create his shot like I want.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201704230UTA.html

 

11:06.0 D. Jordan makes 2-pt shot from 6 ft +

 

On another topic, Utah has the 3rd best defense in the league.  This is what they do.  Also 12th in ORTG.

 

Also with a 4 vs. 5, I can't recall the last 4 vs. 5 that didn't have a few road wins in a series.  I had predicted each team would win once on each other's court.

 

Washington beat Chicago with in 5 with 3 road wins in 2014.  

 

I was curious as to Wall's assists vs. Chicago in 2014 vs. Toronto in 2015.  6.8 in 2014 to 12.5 in 2015.

May 1, 2017 2:52pm
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

It doesn't matter if you go with 3 max players or 1 superstar and a few other mid tier guys. What you have to do is hit on the stuff you aren't expected to every time. You need a later draft pick to pan out. You need a cheapish FA signing to blow up in a big way. You need to hit on a trade. You need a few of these type of things to happen and when they do it supplements your core enough to contend.

May 1, 2017 2:54pm
nuraman00
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 43 min ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

Hitnrun24 wrote:

How many players does Paul play with that play better or even up to their regular season? I mean it's normal to have 1-2 rotation guys have a few off games when the lights get brighter, but he's having to overcome multiple guys being completely worthless for practically entire series. We talk a lot about the Bledsoe trade around here, but that was at least one guy who totally stepped up his game in the postseason.

 

I agree with you, but that was also 4-5 years ago.  Would Bledsoe have done it against a better Memphis team like now?  With a better Conley Jr.?  Would he have done it against Utah?

 

Bledsoe averaged 21 points and 7.7 rebounds on 46% FG against the Jazz this year.  Rebounding good, but FG%, might have lead to Utah rebounds.  We'd have to see.

 

He probably would have done it against SA and Houston, as their pace is more his style.

 

Bledsoe, like many, also would have wanted his own team.  I'm not even sure a starting job on the Clippers would have been enough.  As a young player, he'd probably want to run his own team.

 

They should have gotten better keeper players for him, though.

May 1, 2017 4:06pm
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

nuraman00 wrote:

I wouldn't put Durant on that list.  I've documented his turnovers, lack of ability to create shots for others or handle the ball, for years.  

 

In 2011 I pointed out how Gerald Wallace lead a 4th quarter comeback by driving on Durant repeatedly.  His defense wasn't much until he joined the Warriors, and even then he doesn't have to do much, just not get Wallaced.  Green takes the biggest challenge defensively.

In 2010 or 2011, I posted 2 different game-winning plays Pierce had against New York.  In one, he ran a pick and pop with Garnett and passed to him for the GW.  In another, same play, except he drive for the GW.  Durant can't create his shot, nor pass to others like that.  The example was specifically comparing Durant's lack of ball handling with Pierce.

Oh wow you must be stuck in a time warp or something because you are bringing up stuff 6 and 7 years ago.....yeah like Durant still plays the same and hasnt gotten better in 7 years...you bring up Gerald "freaking" Wallace....that was back when Durant couldnt bench press a 100 pounds right? OMG!!!!   What superstar players guard each other for most of the game.  They usually don't guard each other until crunchtime in the 4th quarter...takes too much energy and will make the offensive game suffer to do it the whole game.....

I really wish you would bring some current data to your arguments.....

May 1, 2017 4:18pm
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

Hitnrun24 wrote:

How many players does Paul play with that play better or even up to their regular season? I mean it's normal to have 1-2 rotation guys have a few off games when the lights get brighter, but he's having to overcome multiple guys being completely worthless for practically entire series. We talk a lot about the Bledsoe trade around here, but that was at least one guy who totally stepped up his game in the postseason.

Sounds like whining in my opinion.  You do understand that the playoffs are a different animal right?  Teams gameplan to take away what you do best.  You also are playing much better teams on a consistent basis so naturally alot of folks are not going to play up to what was done in the regular season.  Heck just look at us for the 1st round, were dead last in 3 point percentage for all playoff teams but was one of the top teams in the regular season.....you find other ways to win..your superstar steps up...

May 1, 2017 4:27pm
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

He's not that type of player. He already did significantly increase his numbers, but asking him to be a 40 point scorer is too much. That's like saying Harden has to average 15 rebounds and play lock down defense on the other team's player all game to win a series instead of getting to rest on Roberson all game. A hell of a lot easier to increase your workload by that much when you get to rest half the time. I mean we're splitting hairs here IMO anyway, but I still think he measures up to most of the elite players in the league.

 

Houston is built better for JH's strengths and weaknesses currently no matter what was thought at the beginning of the year. What happened last year when Houston was not built for Harden's strengths? 

May 1, 2017 4:34pm
nuraman00
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 43 min ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

htownfan wrote:

nuraman00 wrote:

I wouldn't put Durant on that list.  I've documented his turnovers, lack of ability to create shots for others or handle the ball, for years.  

 

In 2011 I pointed out how Gerald Wallace lead a 4th quarter comeback by driving on Durant repeatedly.  His defense wasn't much until he joined the Warriors, and even then he doesn't have to do much, just not get Wallaced.  Green takes the biggest challenge defensively.

In 2010 or 2011, I posted 2 different game-winning plays Pierce had against New York.  In one, he ran a pick and pop with Garnett and passed to him for the GW.  In another, same play, except he drive for the GW.  Durant can't create his shot, nor pass to others like that.  The example was specifically comparing Durant's lack of ball handling with Pierce.

Oh wow you must be stuck in a time warp or something because you are bringing up stuff 6 and 7 years ago.....yeah like Durant still plays the same and hasnt gotten better in 7 years...you bring up Gerald "freaking" Wallace....that was back when Durant couldnt bench press a 100 pounds right? OMG!!!!   What superstar players guard each other for most of the game.  They usually don't guard each other until crunchtime in the 4th quarter...takes too much energy and will make the offensive game suffer to do it the whole game.....

I really wish you would bring some current data to your arguments.....

 

I agree they don't.  I think they should though.  The stars from an older era did.

 

They wouldn't need to do more on offense if they did more on defense and helped expand the lead or cut the deficit.  And even if they still had to do just as much on offense, the guys under 31 could still do it.  Their bodies can handle it.

 

Heck, even 40 year old Vince Carter is playing both sides of the ball and starting since Parsons was hurt.  No, he wasn't guarding Leonard but he still ran over screens to follow his guy.

May 1, 2017 4:37pm
nuraman00
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 43 min ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

I think Paul is just as good of a scorer as players who score in the mid 20s or 30s because he does it with great shooting efficiency, and utilizes the 3-point line; the paint; the midrange; and the foul line.

May 1, 2017 4:54pm
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

Hitnrun24 wrote:

He's not that type of player. He already did significantly increase his numbers, but asking him to be a 40 point scorer is too much. That's like saying Harden has to average 15 rebounds and play lock down defense on the other team's player all game to win a series instead of getting to rest on Roberson all game. A hell of a lot easier to increase your workload by that much when you get to rest half the time. I mean we're splitting hairs here IMO anyway, but I still think he measures up to most of the elite players in the league.

 

Houston is built better for JH's strengths and weaknesses currently no matter what was thought at the beginning of the year. What happened last year when Houston was not built for Harden's strengths? 

Harden still averaged 29 7.6 and 6 with inferior talent.  Who does that?  He still was 5th in the league in assists with terrible shooters......

Harden has a lot to do with making these players better as well.  Just look at what everyone of these "role" players did prior to getting to Houston.  He has helped to elevate their game to get them "wide open shots"  He led the league in assists that led to wide open shots.  He does everything offensively at an "elite" level in scoring and assisting and getting to the free throw line.

CP3 has had the same core for the last 7 years so chemistry plays a big part as well.  This is Harden's first year with this core...First year!!!  You would have thought that CP3 would have done much more by now with the All star talent he has.  Do you blame management for not getting CP3 players more suited for him?

May 1, 2017 5:00pm
htownfan
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: May 7, 2015

nuraman00 wrote:

I think Paul is just as good of a scorer as players who score in the mid 20s or 30s because he does it with great shooting efficiency, and utilizes the 3-point line; the paint; the midrange; and the foul line.

He may shoot efficiently but he is not known as a great scorer or an elite scorer....he's not even top 40 in free throws attempted

May 1, 2017 5:00pm
MadFlabby
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 18 hours ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

Harden i a better scorer I don't think anyone can argue that.  I like CP3's intangibles but if you also factor in age and everything else, I'd take the bearded flop master over CP (Curry and Wall too, I put CP just after those 3.  Yes, I'm including Westbrook).