Does Ballmer really expect top free agents to sign up for this?

39 posts / 0 new
Last post
#1 May 7, 2018 11:21am
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Does Ballmer really expect top free agents to sign up for this?

Quote:

Before the start of the 2011-12 season, during the NBA’s lockout, there were discussions that Rondo would be traded to New Orleans for Chris Paul, but the possibility of a deal fell through, according to reports at the time, because Paul would not commit to signing with Boston when he became a free agent the following summer.

According to Allen, though, the deal fell through for a different reason: “In the end, Doc decided he couldn’t do that to their coach, Monty Williams. Doc was a mentor to Monty, having coached him in Orlando.”

Once that trade was off the table, Allen wrote that he was shocked to find the Celtics move in the opposite direction — instead of trading Rondo, Rivers decided to build the offense around him, as if rewarding his bad behavior. Allen said the season that followed, “my last under contract, was the most stressful by far. It got to the point that Rondo would not even throw the ball to me.”

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/ray-allen-celtics-news-rumors-book-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce-rajon-rondo-relationship-heat-trade/8ff8ps2z45om1rxr5z8zti32a

Quote:

Several former Clippers characterized in Rivers a tendency to placate a player by telling him what he wanted to hear, on occasion even criticizing a teammate that player was beefing with. Rivers didn't account for the fact that players, even ones who aren't always simpatico, talk among themselves and exchange notes. Though players regard him as reasonably honest in film sessions and on game night, keeping inventory of what their coach said about specific players became a parlor game among those players and their confidants.

Rivers' salesmanship has long been heralded as a strong suit. "We are all selling our stuff," he says, "That's what coaches do. We've got to sell what you think is the best way to win." But even those who admire Rivers' leadership style recognize his propensity to promise roles to players that don't materialize.

Indeed, over the course of Rivers' four years with the 2013-17 core, players came to doubt the sincerity of his comments or stated intentions. Some cited a statement by Rivers to ESPN's Zach Lowe this past fall that J.J. Redick was "begging" to return to the Clippers, a declaration that rang so false to anyone who knows Redick that there was a collective bewilderment that Rivers would even say it aloud in polite conversation. For several of his players, it was further proof Rivers had a willingness to peddle mistruths in an effort to spin perception to his liking. To them, Rivers had a talented politician's ability to inspire with rallying cries, but also to fudge the truth for personal expediency in the moment.

[...]

Last March in Memphis at a team meeting, after a particularly dispiriting effort in Minneapolis the previous night, Rivers lashed out at the team. He told the room he had received a text from Garnett, who believed Rivers was too easy on the guys -- a departure from Boston, where he held players accountable. Rivers said he told Garnett that he couldn't hold his current group accountable because they couldn't take it.

For the Clippers, Rivers' message was an illustration of the degree to which the relationship between coach and roster had deteriorated: Rivers had all but abdicated his responsibilities because he perceived his team was soft. His message was the coaches' equivalent of: "I wish you were never born."

[...]

Former teammates say that while Austin Rivers' demeanor wasn't always suited to winning friends, the problem wasn't so much personal as circumstantial. Opportunity is the most precious commodity in the NBA, particularly for non-stars, and Austin's presence on the team complicated the relationship between Doc and the locker room. Among themselves, certain players wondered whether Rivers' minutes were always earned, and some felt Austin, though occasionally criticized in film sessions, wasn't subjected to the same accountability in practice or games. They bristled at the suggestion that Austin was an additive on defense, a premise that Doc presented to the media and internally.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23092424/nba-did-doc-rivers-make-los-angeles-clippers-break-them

May 7, 2018 11:22am
V-Ice
Offline
Last seen: 48 min 48 sec ago
Joined: Nov 27, 2011
And now Stan Van Gundy is out as Pistons coach.
May 7, 2018 11:25am
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Just look at Doc's proven track record of attracting marquee free agents:

May 7, 2018 11:48am
Clipps
Offline
Last seen: 47 min 53 sec ago
Joined: May 4, 2015

So... I'm guessing OP isn't a Doc fan.

May 7, 2018 11:54am
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 53 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

Trading for Blake is a fireable offense. 

 

Those are some pretty damning points against Doc, I'll maintain he's ok in a role without too much power. It was a huge mistake giving someone like that or even anyone really a dual role, but especially Doc because of the things he's done.

 

Ballmer wasn't ready to get a real front office together when he first bought the team, but if he had maybe things could have been salvaged. I still feel like the FO has gone out and brought some good guys in though. There's good Doc stories on how he's been with players too, but obviously telling Duncan no was a huge mistake. 

May 7, 2018 1:22pm
Dyce
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 6 min ago
Joined: Nov 27, 2011

I still can't blame Doc for saying no to that request by Duncan.  You think it would be cool if CP3's brother flew with the team for road trips?

May 7, 2018 10:21pm
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 53 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

I can see that being an issue, but CP3 is not Duncan. He was a very good player you could build around and win with. Duncan was arguably the best player and made any team an instant contender. 

May 7, 2018 11:23pm
Clipps
Offline
Last seen: 47 min 53 sec ago
Joined: May 4, 2015
Dyce wrote:

I still can't blame Doc for saying no to that request by Duncan.  You think it would be cool if CP3's brother flew with the team for road trips?

Duncan, at the time, was a Champion, Finals MVP, and the undisputed leader of a team full of vets in his Sophomore season. If Duncan wants to invite Osama Bin Laden on the plane, you let him. The Magic had a DYNASTY in their hands and Doc fucked it up.
May 8, 2018 5:36am
Dyce
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 6 min ago
Joined: Nov 27, 2011

I'm not sure Duncan was ever very serious about leaving the Spurs and that is why he made the outrages request.  The whole scenario is ridiculous.  Dude just felt comfortable in SA and that is why he returned.

May 8, 2018 6:05am
angelfan1958
Offline
Last seen: 10 min 16 sec ago
Joined: Nov 29, 2011
In my opinion the Blake trade, while a good trade, may cause free agents to think twice. We said the guy was gonna retire a Clipper and then traded him 6 months later.
May 8, 2018 8:04am
JGlanton
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 27 min ago
Joined: Oct 9, 2011
angelfan1958 wrote:
In my opinion the Blake trade, while a good trade, may cause free agents to think twice. We said the guy was gonna retire a Clipper and then traded him 6 months later.
On the other hand, wise free agents might see that the Clippers mean business and will do what it takes to improve the franchise.
May 8, 2018 8:52am
Clippers1121
Online
Last seen: 2 min 13 sec ago
Joined: Nov 15, 2011

I think when he referred to the team being soft he was talking about Blake Griffin.  They traded him and then he could be as hard on the team as he wanted to be since the two prima donnas were then both off the team (CP3 and Blake) and he did not have to worry about offending star players anymore.  He did a better job coaching after that.  The problem with Austin is that of course a father is going to treat his son better than everybody else.  And lie about him as much as possible.  It is a problem.  Only way to solve it is to fire Doc and let somebody else coach the team.  Or Austin has to get a whole lot better so that he actually deserves the minutes he is getting.

As to attracting free agents there are plenty of players who would want to play in Los Angeles and play for Doc Rivers.  If you can coach in the league for 15 years and only have a few guys complaining about your management style then you must be doing something right.  Lou Williams wanted to be here and he played for all kinds of different coaches.  Crawford wanted to be here.  DJ wants to be here.  Plenty of guys love the way he coaches.

May 8, 2018 10:19am
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Clippers1121 wrote:

I think when he referred to the team being soft he was talking about Blake Griffin.

That's a pretty huge reach. Doc's rant was addressed to the entire team after the entire team shit the bed in a game against Minnesota. I get that this board is obsessed with bashing Blake for some reason, but not everything revolves around him.

Quote:

As to attracting free agents there are plenty of players who would want to play in Los Angeles and play for Doc Rivers.

Not stars, that's for sure. Players and agents talk... they've heard what Ray Allen had to say about him. They've heard what CP0 has been saying about Doc since leaving - the facts that CP0 forced us to hire Doc and never told Ballmer to fire Doc don't seem to matter to anyone. No star in their right mind is going to sign with this team as long as Doc's here.

Quote:

If you can coach in the league for 15 years and only have a few guys complaining about your management style then you must be doing something right.

Doc has been coaching for 18 years, actually. And in all that time, the only former player I can think of who's had anything good to say about Doc is Paul Pierce. And even Pierce tried to force a trade out of Boston at least twice during the Doc era before the Big Three was assembled, so that should tell you something.

Quote:

Lou Williams wanted to be here and he played for all kinds of different coaches.  Crawford wanted to be here.  DJ wants to be here.  Plenty of guys love the way he coaches.

None of those guys are stars.

May 8, 2018 10:29am
nuraman00
Online
Last seen: 7 min 48 sec ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

@VFHS:  I posted some of these same quotes from Ray Allen's book, in this thread a few months ago.  I guess you missed it.

 

http://clippertalk.com/topic/rivers-sr-treating-rivers-jr-he-did-rajon

 

About letting family fly on the team plane, Pat Riley had a no family rule.  He made an exception during one of the late-series playoffs games against Boston after Kareem had a poor game earlier.

 

Maybe Rivers Sr. could have made an occasional exception to the no family rule.  Like once a month or something.

 

I do agree with Dyce though, that you don't want family regularly there.  Even if the player is respected, the family can still bring their agenda and create divides.

May 8, 2018 11:04am
trapp76
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 1 min ago
Joined: Oct 28, 2011

angelfan1958 wrote:
In my opinion the Blake trade, while a good trade, may cause free agents to think twice. We said the guy was gonna retire a Clipper and then traded him 6 months later.

Nah, most of the other players in the league don't like Blake, he is really unpopular among them.

May 8, 2018 11:15am
Clippers1121
Online
Last seen: 2 min 13 sec ago
Joined: Nov 15, 2011

Everybody knows it is a players league.  If you give Blake a max contract you are obligated to run the offense through him so that he gets to be the star player.  Doc did that last season and it ruined any chance he had of doing a good job.  I guess similar to what happened on the Celtics with Rondo.  Once Blake was gone the coaching improved dramatically because there were no stars left on the team so he had to run the offense through the best players.  I feel sorry for NBA coaches in that they all have to cater to the stars in the league instead of trying to coach.  Look at OKC with Westbrook.  Donovan and Brooks never had a chance to coach there.  Just feed the stars the ball and let them shoot it.  Not like college.  Quinn Snyder and Brad Stevens with the Jazz and Celtics get to coach because they don't really have stars so they just get to play every guy to his potential.  That is the system we need to have.  No stars just a bunch of guys being given minutes based on productivity.  Of course Austin screws that up with the gifted minutes so that is the main argument why Doc should go.

May 8, 2018 11:30am
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Were we watching the same games? Before and after the Blake trade, the offense was run through Lou and Austin. That's Doc's whole "system," hoping and praying that ball-dominant guards will make him look good. And the coaching never improved one iota after Blake got traded. Still the same ridiculous rotations, no ball movement on offense without Milos, total confusion on defense, Austin being showcased at the team's expense. The only thing that changed was that injuries forced Doc to give a few minutes to players who would otherwise be getting zero minutes ever. And Doc actually took credit for that and used it to fool Ballmer into giving him another contract extension.

If Doc can't coach stars, then keeping him makes even less sense. Our goal right now is to sign at least one star in the 2019 offseason, but we're going to stick with a coach who can't deal with stars?

May 8, 2018 11:52am
Clippers1121
Online
Last seen: 2 min 13 sec ago
Joined: Nov 15, 2011

When we ran the offense through Griffin and he was the featured player we lost nine in a row.  When Doc switched to running the offense through Lou Williams we started playing better but admittedly it was against the weaker teams in the league and they were mostly home games.  Once the schedule got tougher we were toast.  Not sure anybody can coach the stars.  Look at what happened to Casey last night.  DeRozan and Lowry totally sucked in that game so what was he supposed to do?  Bench them.  Same thing happened to Donovan with Carmelo Anthony.  Bench the guy during critical playoff games may be the right decision but why is the Thuder paying him 25 million a year to sit on the bench when you need him the most.  Coaches in the league are damned if they do and damned if they don't play the highest paid players.  What you need is Durant and Lebron or Duncan or somebody who actually is worth the money and actually deliver when you need them to in the playoffs.

Agree though that Doc should not get an extension and if he keeps gifting Austin minutes he should be fired.  I am not sure anybody is going to successfully coach Griffin in the future.  He may become a coach killer because he needs a great supporting cast to do well which may not be possible in Detroit.  Its tough to coach stars who can't dominate the game like they are supposed to do.  DeMarcus Cousins will probably be another guy like this if he wasn't before the injury.

May 8, 2018 12:12pm
trapp76
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 1 min ago
Joined: Oct 28, 2011

Running the offense through star players usually works because they are star players.

It didn't work in our case because Blake wasn't and isn't really a star player. He is fool's gold.

When the offense ran through CP we were consistently top 5 in offensive efficiency every year he was here................and by no coincidence, Houston's offense was historically efficient this season after adding CP.

May 8, 2018 12:16pm
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Houston's ORtg last season without CP0: 114.7

Houston's ORtg this season with CP0: 114.7

Yeah, CP0 is totally the reason their offense is so efficient.

May 8, 2018 12:52pm
MadFlabby
Offline
Last seen: 41 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

Hitnrun24 wrote:

Trading for Blake is a fireable offense. 

 

Those are some pretty damning points against Doc, I'll maintain he's ok in a role without too much power. It was a huge mistake giving someone like that or even anyone really a dual role, but especially Doc because of the things he's done.

 

Ballmer wasn't ready to get a real front office together when he first bought the team, but if he had maybe things could have been salvaged. I still feel like the FO has gone out and brought some good guys in though. There's good Doc stories on how he's been with players too, but obviously telling Duncan no was a huge mistake. 

 

Trading Blake is a fireable offense?  Really?  I thnk it saved the franchise and gave us a chance ot be competitive.  having Blake would have made us an 8th seed at best for years to come.  Also, Doc didn't trade him as he is no longer the GM.

 

 

May 8, 2018 1:02pm
nuraman00
Online
Last seen: 7 min 48 sec ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

MadFlabby wrote:

Hitnrun24 wrote:

Trading for Blake is a fireable offense. 

 

Those are some pretty damning points against Doc, I'll maintain he's ok in a role without too much power. It was a huge mistake giving someone like that or even anyone really a dual role, but especially Doc because of the things he's done.

 

Ballmer wasn't ready to get a real front office together when he first bought the team, but if he had maybe things could have been salvaged. I still feel like the FO has gone out and brought some good guys in though. There's good Doc stories on how he's been with players too, but obviously telling Duncan no was a huge mistake. 

 

Trading Blake is a fireable offense?  Really?  I thnk it saved the franchise and gave us a chance ot be competitive.  having Blake would have made us an 8th seed at best for years to come.  Also, Doc didn't trade him as he is no longer the GM.

 

 

 

I think Hitnrun24 meant it was fireable for the Pistons.

 

Hence with recent news that Stan Van Gundy was let go.

 

He also said trading FOR Blake was fireable, not trading Blake away.

May 8, 2018 1:11pm
Clippers1121
Online
Last seen: 2 min 13 sec ago
Joined: Nov 15, 2011

He was talking about Stan Van Gundy who traded for Blake.  And I agree I think the move saved us from years of mediocrity.  We still may be mediocre but at least we can blame it on new players.

Problem with CP3 is that he isn't a star when you put Klay Thompson or Iguodala on him.  He is just a small point guard who needs to defer to other players to get points.  Hence we lost 10 in a row to the Warriors because deferring did not work with Draymond Green always defending Griffin and Jordan not able to create his own offense.  Relying on Redick and Crawford to beat the Warriors was not a recipe for success.  Stars are stars because they put up big numbers during the regular season.  Stars get exposed in the playoffs if they have holes in their games.  That is when the coaches look bad like with the Raptors last night.  It sucks to be the Raptors, Thunder, TWolves, Trailblazers, and maybe the Heat right now.  Under-performing playoff teams who have hit their ceiling.  Tear em up and start over or continue to be first round losers.  It will be an interesting offseason.

For us we have draft picks and free agent decisions to make.  Rebuild by losing Jordan.  See if Teodosic opts into his second year.  Bradley?  etc...

May 8, 2018 1:30pm
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013
Clippers1121 wrote:

We still may be mediocre but at least we can blame it on new players.

God forbid we blame it on the "coach" who's never won anything without a historically stacked roster (and even then, just barely).
May 8, 2018 1:52pm
Clippers1121
Online
Last seen: 2 min 13 sec ago
Joined: Nov 15, 2011

These coaches seem to all be interchangeable.  Ty Lue may be one of the worst coaches in the league and he has won a ring.  Anybody in the league would have won with the Warriors roster.  Great as Phil Jackson was I think most coaches would have won titles with those rosters.  Good coaches get beat by superior rosters.  Truth is our players were never good enough to win a title regardless of who the coach was.  No I absolutely do not blame Doc for our players failing to win in the playoffs.  I absolutely blame players for choking and for getting injured at the worst possible times.  You know Doc is a good coach because he beat all the bad teams on a regular basis this season.  That means we never mailed it in.  We came out and beat the teams that we were good enough to beat.

May 8, 2018 2:28pm
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Sorry, but Stevens, Pop, Spoelstra, Snyder, and Carlisle are not "interchangeable." Some coaches are clearly better than others at getting the most out of their rosters and putting every player in position to succeed. Yes, you still need talent, but talent still needs to be coached properly. LeBron is the exception to the rule.

May 8, 2018 2:29pm
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013

Oh, by the way... Mark Jackson had the Warriors' roster and won nothing. Coaching matters.

May 8, 2018 8:26pm
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 53 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

Our team wasn't good enough and it wasn't because of Doc's coaching I will agree with that. But he absolutely botched the GMing part of it. We had a team good enough to contend in the 14-15 range, but he did a terrible job of putting a good team around the core players. A better FO could have possibly made the difference

May 8, 2018 9:01pm
mannycoon
Online
Last seen: 8 min 44 sec ago
Joined: Nov 2, 2011
His coaching didn't help with his bad three guard lineups, bench mob rotations, over reliance in Jamal and Austin and sub patterns with Jordan that fed directly into hacking schemes.
May 8, 2018 10:35pm
Rhy1244
Offline
Last seen: 21 hours 37 min ago
Joined: Oct 8, 2011
VFHS wrote:
Clippers1121 wrote:

We still may be mediocre but at least we can blame it on new players.

God forbid we blame it on the "coach" who's never won anything without a historically stacked roster (and even then, just barely).
A historically stacked team that beat another historically stacked team? Are you really going to pretend like kobe/gasol weren’t a worthy adversary? Just about every team to win the championship is stacked...it’s kind of how they win.
May 9, 2018 6:05am
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013
A historically stacked team that got dragged to 7 games by the under-.500 Hawks and the one-man Cavs, and took more games to win it all than any other champion in NBA history. That is how bad of a coach Doc truly is.
May 9, 2018 8:45am
Clippers1121
Online
Last seen: 2 min 13 sec ago
Joined: Nov 15, 2011

Ultimately, it is Ballmer's call on whether to fire Doc or not.  I agree that it should happen but there is not a damn thing I can do about it if it does not happen.  Like most people I will rationalize the decision and hope it works out for the best.  Being a hater and constantly hating on the coach or individual players is not something that changes anything so what is the point of doing it.  Sure you can vent and be frustrated all you want but it is pretty pointless in terms of changing things.  

Pop just lost eight of the last nine playoff games to the Warriors.  Spoelstra got bounced out of the playoffs in five games and does not have a clue what to do with Hassan Whiteside anymore.  Stevens is actually able to coach since he is not burdened by having any stars on his team.  Same thing with Snyder.  Carlisle missed the playoffs again.  I would take any one of these guys over Doc to be honest.  But it isn't my choice.  It is Ballmer's.  If one of us owned the Clippers then Doc would be fired.  But we don't so vent away.  Of course CP3 is gone so eventually your wishes will come true.  It just may take awhile longer in Doc's case.

May 9, 2018 9:14am
trapp76
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 1 min ago
Joined: Oct 28, 2011

VFHS wrote:

Sorry, but Stevens, Pop, Spoelstra, Snyder, and Carlisle are not "interchangeable." Some coaches are clearly better than others at getting the most out of their rosters and putting every player in position to succeed. Yes, you still need talent, but talent still needs to be coached properly. LeBron is the exception to the rule.

Talent/Roster 90%, coaching 10%

May 9, 2018 12:33pm
Hitnrun24
Offline
Last seen: 53 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Dec 6, 2011

Rhy1244 wrote:
VFHS wrote:
Clippers1121 wrote:

We still may be mediocre but at least we can blame it on new players.

God forbid we blame it on the "coach" who's never won anything without a historically stacked roster (and even then, just barely).
A historically stacked team that beat another historically stacked team? Are you really going to pretend like kobe/gasol weren’t a worthy adversary? Just about every team to win the championship is stacked...it’s kind of how they win.

 

Yeah I don't hear that Celtics team brought up when people are arguing for the best teams of all time so I don't get the historically stacked angle. It's not like they're the 73 win Warriors who added the 2nd best player in the league, that's historically stacked. They were a bad team that added 2 very good players in Garnett and Allen then won the championship in their first year together. Many coaches could have screwed that up too.

May 9, 2018 1:04pm
Clipps
Offline
Last seen: 47 min 53 sec ago
Joined: May 4, 2015

The Celtics were pretty sorry before bringing in Ray Allen and KG. Paul Pierce is one of the most overrated players in NBA history if you ask me, but that's a different conversation. Adding a superstar like KG and a all-star caliber like Ray Allen doesn't turn Paul Pierce and that garbage roster into a "historical" team. When I think historical, I think 86 Celtics, late 90's Bulls, 3 peat Lakers, Big 3 Heat, current Warriors. The 08 Celtics are far from that list.

May 9, 2018 2:52pm
nuraman00
Online
Last seen: 7 min 48 sec ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

Hitnrun24 wrote:

Rhy1244 wrote:
VFHS wrote:
Clippers1121 wrote:

We still may be mediocre but at least we can blame it on new players.

God forbid we blame it on the "coach" who's never won anything without a historically stacked roster (and even then, just barely).
A historically stacked team that beat another historically stacked team? Are you really going to pretend like kobe/gasol weren’t a worthy adversary? Just about every team to win the championship is stacked...it’s kind of how they win.

 

Yeah I don't hear that Celtics team brought up when people are arguing for the best teams of all time so I don't get the historically stacked angle. It's not like they're the 73 win Warriors who added the 2nd best player in the league, that's historically stacked. They were a bad team that added 2 very good players in Garnett and Allen then won the championship in their first year together. Many coaches could have screwed that up too.

 

Their defense was historic.

 

And Ray Allen did a great job defensively on Black Moldy in the 2008 and 2010 Finals.

 

Then Rajon Rondo had 6 steals in the championship clinching game.

 

So they had defense from the perimeter, to the interior (Garnett).

 

The Celtics had at least 3 Hall Of Fame players, and I wouldn't be surprised if Rondo makes it at some point.  He might, he might not, but he's played in the league a long time, and had enough triple doubles and such in the playoffs.

May 9, 2018 2:57pm
nuraman00
Online
Last seen: 7 min 48 sec ago
Joined: Oct 6, 2011

Clipps wrote:

The Celtics were pretty sorry before bringing in Ray Allen and KG. Paul Pierce is one of the most overrated players in NBA history if you ask me, but that's a different conversation. Adding a superstar like KG and a all-star caliber like Ray Allen doesn't turn Paul Pierce and that garbage roster into a "historical" team. When I think historical, I think 86 Celtics, late 90's Bulls, 3 peat Lakers, Big 3 Heat, current Warriors. The 08 Celtics are far from that list.

 

They might not be top 5 historical, but they might be top 15 best championship teams.  Plus they made multiple Finals, giving them a multiple year era.

 

If Pippen and Jordan's Bulls beating the Bad Boys both elevates the Bulls, as well as the Bad Boys era, then a similar analogy can be made for Lebron James' Heat teams beating Boston in 2011, and 2012.  

 

The Bulls had to get by a recent champion to win.  

 

Lebron James had to get by a recent Finalist and champion to win.

 

The Heat being linked to the Celtics raises the stature of both.  At least that's how I think they'd be viewed, IMO.

 

 

May 9, 2018 2:57pm
mannycoon
Online
Last seen: 8 min 44 sec ago
Joined: Nov 2, 2011
Rondo and Perkins were very young and made big jumps that season. They also added Posey. Of their top 6 rotation players, 3 were new including two hall of famers, and 2 were young players playing at new levels. They were a completely different team that year than the year before.
May 9, 2018 3:01pm
VFHS
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 23 sec ago
Joined: Mar 8, 2013
Anyone trying to pretend like the 2008 Celtics weren't historically stacked is just revising history to make Doc look better.