Clippers want Kawhi

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#1 Apr 14, 2018 7:23pm
BlakeG4MVP
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Apr 14, 2018 8:00pm
Dyce
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Pretty much everyone does.

Apr 14, 2018 8:12pm
htownfan
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Dyce wrote:

Pretty much everyone does.

 

^^^^^^^^ What he said!!!

Apr 14, 2018 8:50pm
VFHS
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I'm a huge Kawhi fan and would love to have him here, but both first-rounders is too steep for someone has sat out nearly the entire season with an injury. I don't think his value will be quite that high right now, considering how strange this whole situation is perceived to be.

Apr 14, 2018 9:12pm
V-Ice
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1st round pick, Tobias and Beverley or Jr.
Apr 14, 2018 9:27pm
JGlanton
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VFHS wrote:

I'm a huge Kawhi fan and would love to have him here, but both first-rounders is too steep for someone has sat out nearly the entire season with an injury. I don't think his value will be quite that high right now, considering how strange this whole situation is perceived to be.

He's worth eleventy-seven picks in the 12 to 13 range.

Apr 14, 2018 9:46pm
Hitnrun24
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JGlanton wrote:

VFHS wrote:

I'm a huge Kawhi fan and would love to have him here, but both first-rounders is too steep for someone has sat out nearly the entire season with an injury. I don't think his value will be quite that high right now, considering how strange this whole situation is perceived to be.

He's worth eleventy-seven picks in the 12 to 13 range.

 

Agree with this. He might not be worth a top 5 and 12th pick, but for 12 and 13 he's worth that. 

Apr 14, 2018 10:07pm
gilp5
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Spurs shouldn't even pay him for a large part of the season. If the reports are true and he's cleared medically by their staff, but refuses to play, he shouldn't get paid.

Apr 14, 2018 11:07pm
trapp76
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JGlanton wrote:

VFHS wrote:

I'm a huge Kawhi fan and would love to have him here, but both first-rounders is too steep for someone has sat out nearly the entire season with an injury. I don't think his value will be quite that high right now, considering how strange this whole situation is perceived to be.

He's worth eleventy-seven picks in the 12 to 13 range.

+1 all day long, we are talking about a Lebron/KD/Curry level talent
Apr 14, 2018 11:24pm
nuraman00
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Isaiah Thomas was medically cleared to play last year, he came back, and then this year he's had more problems.

 

Maybe being medically cleared to play doesn't mean the same thing as it's smart to play, longterm.

 

Maybe he didn't trust their doctors, or still thought he could injure himself longterm if it didn't properly heal.

 

Nowitzki was medically cleared to play in the 2003 WCF, but Don Nelson wouldn't play him, because Nelson didn't think it was a good idea longterm.  So Dallas won game 1 (before he got hurt), then lost the series in 6 games to the Spurs.

 

If the Mavs had never won a title, then that series would have been looked upon as an even greater opportunity that might have gotten away.

 

It was a funny series, with Dallas losing all 3 home games, and winning 2 road games.

 

Given that Nowitzki has been fairly healthy for his career, it was probably the right move by Nelson.

Apr 14, 2018 11:40pm
BlakeG4MVP
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V-Ice wrote:
1st round pick, Tobias and Beverley or Jr.
Boston gonna offer Tatum, Brown , and the Lakers #1 , and their #1. Which deal is better for the spurs ? I say Throw in 2 #1 picks this year , Tobias , and Beverly will land us kawahi ...
Apr 15, 2018 12:25am
CorkScrew
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I don't think anyone in the public arena has any idea about what really went on in San Antonio with him, or what the nature or extent of his injury was. I can think of tons of scenarios that flash a neon sign that spells "oportunity" and a ton of scenarios that flash a glaring red flag, We just don't know.

But I certainly hope if a deal goes down and we end up with him on the roster, we end up with the pre-injury, pre-drama Kawhi, in which case they can have both picks as well as anyone on our roster they want.

... Oh, and a partride in a pear tree too...

 

Apr 15, 2018 6:24am
Dyce
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Blake Griffin basically had the same quad injury a couple of seasons ago.  We've seen first hand what that did to his athleticism.  

Apr 15, 2018 8:50am
OGClipsFan32
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I hope we don’t move Tobias. But it’s hard to see how else it would work since Gallo really f*cked us this year. I also believe we should keep Beverly and sign and trade Avery Bradley if at all possible. Tobias, Beverly, and both picks is too much IMO. Especially with DJ being a question mark.
Apr 15, 2018 9:10am
V-Ice
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If we trade Beverley then we can resign Bradley for cheap.
Apr 15, 2018 9:38am
pro100
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BlakeG4MVP wrote:
V-Ice wrote:
1st round pick, Tobias and Beverley or Jr.
Boston gonna offer Tatum, Brown , and the Lakers #1 , and their #1. Which deal is better for the spurs ? I say Throw in 2 #1 picks this year , Tobias , and Beverly will land us kawahi ...

We need to keep one of our first rounders. 

 

One first rounder, Tobais, and whoever else they want. They can't hold on to him and demand the world since he doesn't want to be there anymore. They're losing leverage.. But like you said Boston can give them much more than us if it came down to it.

Apr 15, 2018 11:11am
VFHS
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trapp76 wrote:
JGlanton wrote:

VFHS wrote:

I'm a huge Kawhi fan and would love to have him here, but both first-rounders is too steep for someone has sat out nearly the entire season with an injury. I don't think his value will be quite that high right now, considering how strange this whole situation is perceived to be.

He's worth eleventy-seven picks in the 12 to 13 range.

+1 all day long, we are talking about a Lebron/KD/Curry level talent

Before his latest injury, I personally thought he was the second-best player in the world, behind only LeBron. But now that he's missed basically an entire season with a serious injury, it's FAR from certain that he'll ever be the same player again. I can just see it now: the Spurs draft two stars with our picks and develop Tobias into a star while our inept medical staff turns Kawhi into the new D-Rose. They get back to winning championships while we still can't even get past the second round. Knowing this franchise, I would be shocked if that DOESN'T happen if we trade the farm for Kawhi.

If Kawhi really does get traded, every potential suitor's attitude towards the Spurs should be "you'll take what you can get, or have fun trying to fix your relationship with Kawhi." His injury situation makes him too risky to give up a ton of assets right now.

Apr 15, 2018 12:33pm
ClipperSisyphus
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Kawhi trade only works if we keep Tobias. He is a borderline all star and we need to stockpile good players. I could see a frontline of Kawhi, Tobias and Gallo. On paper it sounds good, but we know Gallo won't give us at least 60 games.

To get Kawhi, sign and trade DJ and offer anything else except Lou, Milos and Beverley.

I don't think teams are going to offer the moon for Kawhi. He sat out a season. Look at what CLE got for Kyrie, and he was a healthy all star.

Apr 15, 2018 2:21pm
clipfan88
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I don't think we should give up Tobias at all. Good priced contract and he performed well. I'm ok with giving up the pick(s) and Bradley and ESPECIALLY Gallinari. We've got to find a way to dump Gallo. Big salary against our cap for someone who rides the pine all the time... literally ALL THE TIME.

Apr 15, 2018 4:11pm
V-Ice
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We will be the favorites to trade for Kawhi. Boston can offer a better package, however it’s unlikely for Kawhi to sign long term w Boston. Would prefer West Coast. Even though I believe we have never made a trade w the Spurs. For what that is worth.
Apr 15, 2018 5:37pm
nuraman00
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V-Ice wrote:
We will be the favorites to trade for Kawhi. Boston can offer a better package, however it’s unlikely for Kawhi to sign long term w Boston. Would prefer West Coast. Even though I believe we have never made a trade w the Spurs. For what that is worth.

 

I just checked Pro Sports Transactions.

 

You are right.  Clippers have never traded with the Spurs.

 

Even the Nets have made 4 trades with the Spurs (last was in 1988, Waltery Berry for Dallas Comegys.  I have no idea who these two guys are.

 

I see Berry was a good college player.   He had a 3 year NBA career.

Apr 15, 2018 5:54pm
V-Ice
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Walter Berry from St Johns and Dallas Comegy from DePaul (I believe)
Apr 15, 2018 6:02pm
nuraman00
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V-Ice wrote:
Walter Berry from St Johns and Dallas Comegy from DePaul (I believe)

 

Yup.  yes

Apr 15, 2018 8:47pm
babyradar01
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Its between us and the lakers. Kawhi wants to be home.
Apr 15, 2018 9:20pm
Mistwell
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babyradar01 wrote:
Its between us and the lakers. Kawhi wants to be home.

How will they fit Lebron and George and Kawhi? I mean, they're rumored to get all three now? Of course CP3 is a free agent too, so he'll want to go to the Lakers as well. 

Apr 15, 2018 9:52pm
MadFlabby
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Too risky. Keep our assets and rebuild via the draft and smart trades.
Apr 16, 2018 9:39am
babyradar01
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Mistwell wrote:

babyradar01 wrote:
Its between us and the lakers. Kawhi wants to be home.

How will they fit Lebron and George and Kawhi? I mean, they're rumored to get all three now? Of course CP3 is a free agent too, so he'll want to go to the Lakers as well. 


They should trade Ball, Ingram and Deng for Kawhi. Is that enough?  If not they an add Jo Hrt or their 2019 pik.  Is Ball and Ingrm too much?  No, especally if you're getting Paul an Lebron to come.
 

Apr 16, 2018 9:41am
Clippers1121
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The Spurs can give him a 200 million plus extension this summer.  Kawhi's camp did not want to jeopardize that payday by having him play while he was still injured.  But why would he think that they would still give him that extension if he did not play at all.  It seems like they would not.  So if he goes to another team as a one year rental than he has to prove himself all over again to get the big contract in 2019.  So what do the Spurs do?  Do not extend him and let him walk in 2019 or try and trade him now for as much as they can get for him.  They sure are not giving him that big extension.  Kawhi is definitely still injured or he would have played the last two months and secured that big contract extension from the Spurs.  We have to assume it is a one year rental if we trade for him based on his health not on his desire to stay with us.  My opinion is he is too big of a risk to give up major assets for since he is basically only a one year rental that hasn't played for the last year and is not healthy.

Apr 16, 2018 9:51am
babyradar01
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Clippers1121 wrote:

The Spurs can give him a 200 million plus extension this summer.  Kawhi's camp did not want to jeopardize that payday by having him play while he was still injured.  But why would he think that they would still give him that extension if he did not play at all.  It seems like they would not.  So if he goes to another team as a one year rental than he has to prove himself all over again to get the big contract in 2019.  So what do the Spurs do?  Do not extend him and let him walk in 2019 or try and trade him now for as much as they can get for him.  They sure are not giving him that big extension.  Kawhi is definitely still injured or he would have played the last two months and secured that big contract extension from the Spurs.  We have to assume it is a one year rental if we trade for him based on his health not on his desire to stay with us.  My opinion is he is too big of a risk to give up major assets for since he is basically only a one year rental that hasn't played for the last year and is not healthy.


Not necessarily, we told CP3 he had to pick up his option before we would trade for him and he did, so at the very least we knew we had him for 2 years.  Same can be done with Kawhi.

Apr 16, 2018 10:08am
Clippers1121
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So Kawhi has a player option for 2019?  He would probably rather opt out and become a free agent in 2019.  But yeah it would make him more valuable to have him locked up for two years.  I would not give up major assets for less than that.  Harris and one of the two first rounders would be about as high as I would go even with the two year guarantee.  And that would only be if I thought he was healthy enough to play next season.

Apr 16, 2018 10:11am
trapp76
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I think we really need to know the truth about what is going on right now between Kawhi and the Spurs. Any team who wants to trade for him needs to get to the bottom of that before any deal is made.

Nobody on this board really knows what is actually going on there.

Apr 16, 2018 10:13am
Dyce
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I could see him having a sharp decline in productivity like Andre Iguodala did.

Apr 16, 2018 10:26am
Mistwell
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Clippers1121 wrote:

The Spurs can give him a 200 million plus extension this summer.  Kawhi's camp did not want to jeopardize that payday by having him play while he was still injured.  But why would he think that they would still give him that extension if he did not play at all.  It seems like they would not.  So if he goes to another team as a one year rental than he has to prove himself all over again to get the big contract in 2019.  So what do the Spurs do?  Do not extend him and let him walk in 2019 or try and trade him now for as much as they can get for him.  They sure are not giving him that big extension.  Kawhi is definitely still injured or he would have played the last two months and secured that big contract extension from the Spurs.  We have to assume it is a one year rental if we trade for him based on his health not on his desire to stay with us.  My opinion is he is too big of a risk to give up major assets for since he is basically only a one year rental that hasn't played for the last year and is not healthy.

He isn't even travelling with the team during the playoffs. That has notning to do with an injury - his injury doesn't prevent him from sitting on a bench in a suit and cheering on his team.

He's very clearly not coming back. I don't even think he's injured anymore (as their doctors state). But as Trapp76 says, we don't know that for sure. All we seem to know is he's appears done with the Spurs. 

Apr 16, 2018 11:50am
nuraman00
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Mistwell wrote:

babyradar01 wrote:
Its between us and the lakers. Kawhi wants to be home.

How will they fit Lebron and George and Kawhi? I mean, they're rumored to get all three now? Of course CP3 is a free agent too, so he'll want to go to the Lakers as well. 

 

The Lakers will be so good then, that Lonzo Ball will be coming off the bench.  

Apr 16, 2018 11:54am
nuraman00
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Kevin Harlan was on the radio today.  He said that Kawhi went from having an agent midseason, to having his family represent him.

 

And that Kawhi is frustrated because he says his injury was mis-diagnosed.

 

He said that a Spurs representative checks in on him in New York, frequently.

 

I think he doesn't trust that the Spurs doctors that medically cleared him, because of how they mis-diagnosed him the first time.

Apr 16, 2018 12:37pm
babyradar01
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He's not going back to the Spurs.

Apr 16, 2018 12:44pm
trapp76
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nuraman00 wrote:

Kevin Harlan was on the radio today.  He said that Kawhi went from having an agent midseason, to having his family represent him.

 

And that Kawhi is frustrated because he says his injury was mis-diagnosed.

 

He said that a Spurs representative checks in on him in New York, frequently.

 

I think he doesn't trust that the Spurs doctors that medically cleared him, because of how they mis-diagnosed him the first time.

Yeah I feel it is something like that as well.

The Spurs want him to play regardless of the long term implications to his health/earning power because they want to win right now. 

I am guessing he views the Spurs and their medical staff as being kind of shady for asking him to play hurt and risk further injury. That seems to be where the conflict is between the two camps.

Apr 16, 2018 12:55pm
nuraman00
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I'm also thinking of Isaiah Thomas, who played hurt in the playoffs last year, and had recurring problems from the same injury, this year.

Apr 16, 2018 1:05pm
V-Ice
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He will become a Clipper.
Apr 16, 2018 1:17pm
SamIAm19
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Kawhi will go to the Lakers easily

Apr 16, 2018 1:32pm
Mistwell
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SamIAm19 wrote:

Kawhi will go to the Lakers easily

He's not a free agent, and Lakers no longer have Lopez or Frye to trade (both expired) and Spurs are over the cap I believe. So it has to be a trade, and for someone SA wants. Who can Lakers give up to get him, that would make him want to go in the first place? Spurs don't want Deng and his awful contract. Lakers have no pick to trade of any value. Ball and Ingram are litterally the only contracts they still have on the books that they can trade which add up to any meaningful sum to try and match. Lakers have basically set themselves up for free agents, and only free agents. They're not well set up to make a trade for a decent sized contract any more, unless it's a salary dump from someone...which this isn't. 

 

Apr 16, 2018 1:45pm
SamIAm19
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Mistwell wrote:

SamIAm19 wrote:

Kawhi will go to the Lakers easily

He's not a free agent, and Lakers no longer have Lopez or Frye to trade (both expired) and Spurs are over the cap I believe. So it has to be a trade, and for someone SA wants. Who can Lakers give up to get him, that would make him want to go in the first place? Spurs don't want Deng and his awful contract. Lakers have no pick to trade of any value. Ball and Ingram are litterally the only contracts they still have on the books that they can trade which add up to any meaningful sum to try and match. Lakers have basically set themselves up for free agents, and only free agents. They're not well set up to make a trade for a decent sized contract any more, unless it's a salary dump from someone...which this isn't. 

 

 

Okay well hes not going to the Clippers.  If anything the Spurs are just trolling everyone and hes staying there.

 

Apr 16, 2018 3:33pm
nuraman00
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Brian Geltzeiler was just on the radio.  He said the Spurs doctors have cleared him, but not Kawhi's camp's doctors.

 

So there's a difference in opinion between the two medical staffs.

Apr 16, 2018 3:33pm
nuraman00
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Geltzeiler also recalled that Aldridge wanted out when the playoffs ended last year.  By the time training camp started, he was back with a new contract.  So he said things could change.

Apr 16, 2018 4:05pm
gilp5
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trapp76 wrote:

nuraman00 wrote:

Kevin Harlan was on the radio today.  He said that Kawhi went from having an agent midseason, to having his family represent him.

 

And that Kawhi is frustrated because he says his injury was mis-diagnosed.

 

He said that a Spurs representative checks in on him in New York, frequently.

 

I think he doesn't trust that the Spurs doctors that medically cleared him, because of how they mis-diagnosed him the first time.

Yeah I feel it is something like that as well.

The Spurs want him to play regardless of the long term implications to his health/earning power because they want to win right now. 

I am guessing he views the Spurs and their medical staff as being kind of shady for asking him to play hurt and risk further injury. That seems to be where the conflict is between the two camps.

I don't buy this explanation. Why would the Spurs consciously risk playing him injured and losing him to an extension that would benefit the Spurs for many years? Just so they would have a better chance as an 8 seed in the playoffs this year? It doesn't make sense and the Spurs are generally a loyal classy franchise.

Kawhi is afraid that if he plays, he will show less athleticism, which will risk his 200+ million extension. I'm guessing he will demand the extension from any team he's traded to. So he can get his money without showing if he has lost some athleticism. 

Apr 16, 2018 6:17pm
Hitnrun24
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gilp5 wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

nuraman00 wrote:

Kevin Harlan was on the radio today.  He said that Kawhi went from having an agent midseason, to having his family represent him.

 

And that Kawhi is frustrated because he says his injury was mis-diagnosed.

 

He said that a Spurs representative checks in on him in New York, frequently.

 

I think he doesn't trust that the Spurs doctors that medically cleared him, because of how they mis-diagnosed him the first time.

Yeah I feel it is something like that as well.

The Spurs want him to play regardless of the long term implications to his health/earning power because they want to win right now. 

I am guessing he views the Spurs and their medical staff as being kind of shady for asking him to play hurt and risk further injury. That seems to be where the conflict is between the two camps.

I don't buy this explanation. Why would the Spurs consciously risk playing him injured and losing him to an extension that would benefit the Spurs for many years? Just so they would have a better chance as an 8 seed in the playoffs this year? It doesn't make sense and the Spurs are generally a loyal classy franchise.

Kawhi is afraid that if he plays, he will show less athleticism, which will risk his 200+ million extension. I'm guessing he will demand the extension from any team he's traded to. So he can get his money without showing if he has lost some athleticism. 

 

I agree that it doesn't make sense from the Spurs side of things, but I also don't think there is too much risk from Kawhi either. I feel like he is safe from a down year costing him a max deal. I think most teams would line up to take the risk and pay him if he had come back and not looked great because when he is at the top of his game he is one of the 5 most valuable players in the league. Just like Lebron, is there any injury he could suffer outside of losing a limb where a team wouldn't be willing to give him a max deal even when he is injured?

Apr 17, 2018 1:39pm
nuraman00
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Apr 17, 2018 1:44pm
gilp5
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nuraman00 wrote:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/04/whats-going-on-with-kawhi-leonard-a-strange-timeline

Nuraman can you recall a star player - even a hothead or headcase - refusing to play for his team in the playoffs after being cleared by the team doctors? I can't think of a single case.

Apr 17, 2018 2:39pm
pageC4
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We should take a few things into consideration in this case.

1. injury. In over seven seasons, Kawhaii has averaged about 58 games per season, so he will miss time if we get him. If we acquire him then we will have quite a bit of players who miss time regularly: Danillo, Patrick, Bradley. 

2. Package for a trade: we already gave away a pick on a veteran, Danillo, and that didn't pan out so well. If we package both picks that's way too risky. Imagine if we trade away both picks, one of our better guys like Montrezl, and Kawhaii gets injured again? If we trade away pieces we need to include some expendable pieces like Danillo, Jordan, and only one pick, but not both. Any package should have some untouchable players: Harris, Harrell, Wallace, and the higher pick we have this year should be untouchable.  

Apr 17, 2018 2:40pm
VFHS
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gilp5 wrote:

nuraman00 wrote:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/04/whats-going-on-with-kawhi-leonard-a-strange-timeline

Nuraman can you recall a star player - even a hothead or headcase - refusing to play for his team in the playoffs after being cleared by the team doctors? I can't think of a single case.

Derrick Rose did it in 2013. The team doctors cleared him in early March, but he sat out the whole season while his teammates limped through the playoffs on their own injuries. Not great company for Kawhi to be in.
Apr 17, 2018 3:01pm
nuraman00
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gilp5 wrote:

nuraman00 wrote:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/04/whats-going-on-with-kawhi-leonard-a-strange-timeline

Nuraman can you recall a star player - even a hothead or headcase - refusing to play for his team in the playoffs after being cleared by the team doctors? I can't think of a single case.

 

This isn't the first time I've seen a disconnect between team doctors and a player wanting his own doctors and trusting them more.  I've seen other players say that the team doctors mis-diagnosed them and that they have a different injury than what the team doctors say, and that the team isn't looking out for their best interest.

 

I can't recall the names right now, but yes, I can recall other cases.  Once I remember the players and the injuries, I can look up how those situations ended.

 

Let me view the situation this way.

 

There might not be a difference between Nowitzki getting hurt in game 3 of the WCF and being held out of the rest of the series by Don Nelson, a series the Mavs would lose in 6, even though he was medically cleared to play.

 

Or Brett Brown holding out Joel Embiid in this year's playoffs, even though he's cleared to play.

 

 

Or Leonard being held out, even though the team doctors cleared him to play.

 

In Nowitzki's case, Nowitzki's side said he could play, but Don Nelson said it wasn't good for him longterm.  (Nowitzki admitted much later that it was probably the right decision).

 

In Embiid's case, he says he can play, but Brown says he can't, because it wasn't good for him longterm.

 

In Leonard's case, the Spurs doctors say he can play, but Leonard's camp says he can't, because it's not good for him longterm.

 

It's just a difference between one side thinking he is healed and there won't be any longterm risks, and another set of doctors saying that he could still injure something, or that he's not healed yet.

 

There's lots of times that an athlete comes back, and puts a different amount of stress on a different body part to take it easy on the recently injured part, then that body part or muscle ends up getting hurt.

 

Let's say this was the Abe Pollin Wizards or the Tom Benson Pelicans.  I bet those owners would have pushed their players to come back early so they could try and see a championship before they died.  

 

The owners don't always have the players' best interest at heart either.

 

I can also understand why Tony Parker doesn't understand the problem Leonard has with the Spurs doctors.  Parker has had a good relationship with the medical staff in a long career.

 

Leonard has a shorter relationship, and now because of his distrust, he doesn't have the years of goodwill that Parker has.  So his experience his different.

 

Isaiah Thomas was "cleared to play" in the 2017 playoffs, but this year he admitted that he should have sat out.  He's had more hip problems this year, because he came back too soon for the playoffs.  And now he looks terrible.

 

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/10/11/isaiah-thomas-cavs-celtics-trade-injury-playoffs-hip

 

So in all of these cases, I just see it as a difference in opinion between whether someone is ready to come back without longterm effects.  Sometimes the players think they are ready but the coach doesn't (Nowitzki, Embiid), and sometimes the coach thinks they are ready but the player doesn't.  It just stems from having different medical opinions.

 

Kawhi has gotten a second opinion and this doctor says he's not ready.