12th and 13th picks

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#1 May 3, 2018 10:51pm
babyradar01
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12th and 13th picks

Donovan Mitchell was the 13th pick last year. What if we strike gold and get 2 players of equal skill and impact...something we will be telling san antonio when they call us about trading Kawhi.
May 4, 2018 5:56am
angelfan1958
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Mitchell was a lucky get. Most 12 and 13 picks r rotation guys but rarely stars.
May 4, 2018 6:26am
VFHS
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Mitchell wasn't luck, he was the product of superior scouting and player development.
May 4, 2018 7:55am
Mistwell
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VFHS wrote:
Mitchell wasn't luck, he was the product of superior scouting and player development.

I just looked at Utah's draft choices for the past several years...nothing impressive. They traded up to get Mitchell and got lucky. In fact they traded their former blown 12th pick in Trey Lyles. And they picked Taurean Prince 12th the next year...who is meh. There is nothing special in their scouting. They did get lucky. 

May 4, 2018 8:11am
VFHS
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Mistwell wrote:

VFHS wrote:
Mitchell wasn't luck, he was the product of superior scouting and player development.

I just looked at Utah's draft choices for the past several years...nothing impressive. They traded up to get Mitchell and got lucky. In fact they traded their former blown 12th pick in Trey Lyles. And they picked Taurean Prince 12th the next year...who is meh. There is nothing special in their scouting. They did get lucky. 

You should probably look closer. The Jazz drafted Hayward 9th overall, which was considered a reach at the time, but they developed him into a very good player. They drafted Gobert 27th overall. Our very own Ty Wallace was originally a second-round draft pick by the Jazz. Taurean Prince was sent to Atlanta in the George Hill trade before he could ever play a game for the Jazz, but regardless, Prince is developing into a very solid player for the Hawks. Just because Utah isn't batting 1.000 on their draft picks (which nobody does) doesn't mean they haven't been more adept than other teams at spotting talent in the draft, even with suboptimal draft position.

Your bizarre anti-draft agenda is once again shining through in your analysis.

May 4, 2018 8:59am
Mistwell
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Hayward was 8 years ago. Gobert was 5. It's not that their drafting is horrible...it's that it's just pretty normal.There is nothing superior about their scouting. Of course they got lucky. I am pretty sure THEY say they got lucky. It's only you saying otherwise, and for reasons that have nothing to do with the Jazz to begin with because we both know the only reason you said it was to bash Doc Rivers, and not to praise the Jazz's actual scouting. 

May 4, 2018 9:18am
babyradar01
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Mistwell wrote:

Hayward was 8 years ago. Gobert was 5. It's not that their drafting is horrible...it's that it's just pretty normal.There is nothing superior about their scouting. Of course they got lucky. I am pretty sure THEY say they got lucky. It's only you saying otherwise, and for reasons that have nothing to do with the Jazz to begin with because we both know the only reason you said it was to bash Doc Rivers, and not to praise the Jazz's actual scouting. 


LOL.  +1.  He loves taking jabs at Doc anyway he can...

May 4, 2018 9:56am
trapp76
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VFHS wrote:
Mitchell wasn't luck, he was the product of superior scouting and player development.

LOL, what an idiot.

The entire draft is mostly luck you dumbass. Every now and then you can get teams who exploit market inneficiencies like the Spurs used to do with international players, but thats pretty much the extent of any real skill being involved. Just look at the draft picks for every single team of the last 20 years and look at the "hit" rate. The only rules you can count on is the higher hit rate for a pick in the top 5 or maybe even the top 3 or the more picks you have the more likely you are to strike gold. That's pretty much it. 

Not just in basketball either, in every single sport.

May 4, 2018 10:40am
mannycoon
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Trey Lyles is a pretty good player.
May 4, 2018 12:33pm
datlbn1p
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maybe use the draft picks to trade down?

May 6, 2018 2:16pm
JGlanton
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datlbn1p wrote:

maybe use the draft picks to trade down?

My first choice is to keep one and trade one.  But only if the trade gets us a good asset or helps rid us of a bad contract.

2nd choice is to trade up, but I doubt any team ahead of in the draft would do that.

I'd never trade down.

May 6, 2018 6:06pm
Dyce
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There are about 8 guys in this draft I like. All probably gone before our picks.
May 6, 2018 6:21pm
Mistwell
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Dyce wrote:
There are about 8 guys in this draft I like. All probably gone before our picks.

I would not be surprised if one of those 8 is left at 12. Teams take crazy choices every year. And some players suddenly take a down turn at the last second and slip lower. 

May 6, 2018 7:36pm
CorkScrew
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I am hanging my hope hat on West finding a diamond in the rough, and this time he has two chances to do it, doubling his alread very good odds.

Now, if he can pull a rabbit out of a hat and we somehow end up with (a healthy) Kawhi Leanord or some equivalent score, I can live with losing both picks.

 

May 6, 2018 7:56pm
JGlanton
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Diamonds in the rough can be found by measuring hardness.  There are guys that are dominant at their positions but don't show up as "stars". Josh Hart and John Collins and Jordan Bell, for example. And for a 2nd rounder, Siddarius Thornwell. And Donovan Mitchell.  

Maybe this year it's Mikal Bridges, Jalen Brunson, Devonte Clark, Jevon Carter.  Gary Clark for a 2nd round steal.

May 7, 2018 8:38am
Clippers1121
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I hate the damn draft because usually you don't find out if the player you drafted is any good until he has been in the league for three years.  So many of these guys are late bloomers who take several years to develop before they become good NBA players.  Oladipo, Sabonis, Hield, Wiggins, Porzingis, Fultz, Ball, etc...  A lot of these guys develop after several years in the league, a lot of guys you think you hit gold when in fact you struck out, and some of these guys are sure things that turn into busts or bad contracts.  It is all a crapshoot.  I think high picks are much better bets in general and have the advantage that if you pick somebody high you have to play him and develop him a lot faster.  12th and 13th picks usually ride the pine for a while.  So yeah, I think packaging the picks to move up in the draft is usually a good idea if you really like a guy who is going to go in the top 10.

May 7, 2018 9:49am
ClipperSisyphus
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Clippers1121 wrote:

I hate the damn draft because usually you don't find out if the player you drafted is any good until he has been in the league for three years.  So many of these guys are late bloomers who take several years to develop before they become good NBA players.  Oladipo, Sabonis, Hield, Wiggins, Porzingis, Fultz, Ball, etc...  A lot of these guys develop after several years in the league, a lot of guys you think you hit gold when in fact you struck out, and some of these guys are sure things that turn into busts or bad contracts.  It is all a crapshoot.  I think high picks are much better bets in general and have the advantage that if you pick somebody high you have to play him and develop him a lot faster.  12th and 13th picks usually ride the pine for a while.  So yeah, I think packaging the picks to move up in the draft is usually a good idea if you really like a guy who is going to go in the top 10.

If a team keeps its draft picks, it should always have 4 players on rookie contracts. Hopefully at least 1 of those 4 will develop in to a rotation player worthy of a second contract.

Is it better to rely on the G-League and min salary vets to fill out the bottom of the roster? I think that is a bigger crap shoot and no way to develop starters for the future.

May 7, 2018 11:21am
V-Ice
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I would trade either pick for Fultz.. he may become expendable.
May 8, 2018 8:30am
Clippers1121
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Fultz is an enigma.  Who the hell knows what he is worth based on the injury reports and the sample size of games he has actually played in.  He could be worth a  lot or maybe he is worth less than Tyrone Wallace.  Just difficult to tell.  I would be wary if the Sixers give up on him after only one season because in general they don't do that with their draft picks.  They would probably want both our draft picks plus a position player for him if they did choose to trade him.  Fine if he returns to the form of a number one pick.  Terrible if he is a bust.

May 8, 2018 8:48am
pro100
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Mistwell wrote:

VFHS wrote:
Mitchell wasn't luck, he was the product of superior scouting and player development.

I just looked at Utah's draft choices for the past several years...nothing impressive. They traded up to get Mitchell and got lucky. In fact they traded their former blown 12th pick in Trey Lyles. And they picked Taurean Prince 12th the next year...who is meh. There is nothing special in their scouting. They did get lucky. 

 

He actually might have a breakout season next year. Have to wait and see but he's showing flashes. 

May 9, 2018 5:37pm
Mistwell
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What do you guys think of Trae Young? Unless Cavs take him, I suspect we could take him. 

May 9, 2018 5:39pm
Hitnrun24
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pro100 wrote:

Mistwell wrote:

VFHS wrote:
Mitchell wasn't luck, he was the product of superior scouting and player development.

I just looked at Utah's draft choices for the past several years...nothing impressive. They traded up to get Mitchell and got lucky. In fact they traded their former blown 12th pick in Trey Lyles. And they picked Taurean Prince 12th the next year...who is meh. There is nothing special in their scouting. They did get lucky. 

 

He actually might have a breakout season next year. Have to wait and see but he's showing flashes. 

 

For 12th picks I'd say Prince and Lyles are hits

May 9, 2018 5:42pm
Hitnrun24
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Clippers1121 wrote:

Fultz is an enigma.  Who the hell knows what he is worth based on the injury reports and the sample size of games he has actually played in.  He could be worth a  lot or maybe he is worth less than Tyrone Wallace.  Just difficult to tell.  I would be wary if the Sixers give up on him after only one season because in general they don't do that with their draft picks.  They would probably want both our draft picks plus a position player for him if they did choose to trade him.  Fine if he returns to the form of a number one pick.  Terrible if he is a bust.

 

Expectations have to be adjusted for sure. I don't think Fultz can live up to the number 1 pick anymore, but he can still be a decent player. I'd be very surprised if he becomes a star. I don't think they'd trade him for the 12th or 13th pick especially after having to give up an additional high pick to get him, but that's not too far off from what his value is.

May 9, 2018 6:36pm
ClipperSisyphus
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Hitnrun24 wrote:

Clippers1121 wrote:

Fultz is an enigma.  Who the hell knows what he is worth based on the injury reports and the sample size of games he has actually played in.  He could be worth a  lot or maybe he is worth less than Tyrone Wallace.  Just difficult to tell.  I would be wary if the Sixers give up on him after only one season because in general they don't do that with their draft picks.  They would probably want both our draft picks plus a position player for him if they did choose to trade him.  Fine if he returns to the form of a number one pick.  Terrible if he is a bust.

 

Expectations have to be adjusted for sure. I don't think Fultz can live up to the number 1 pick anymore, but he can still be a decent player. I'd be very surprised if he becomes a star. I don't think they'd trade him for the 12th or 13th pick especially after having to give up an additional high pick to get him, but that's not too far off from what his value is.

Interesting that Boston traded down from #1 to #3 and drafted Tatum. Tatum has played 383 minutes in the playoffs and averaged 18.3 points/game. Fultz has played 23 minutes in the playoffs. I think Boston knew that Fulz was not worth a #1 pick but that was the consensus going in to the draft.

May 9, 2018 9:13pm
Hitnrun24
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ClipperSisyphus wrote:

Hitnrun24 wrote:

Clippers1121 wrote:

Fultz is an enigma.  Who the hell knows what he is worth based on the injury reports and the sample size of games he has actually played in.  He could be worth a  lot or maybe he is worth less than Tyrone Wallace.  Just difficult to tell.  I would be wary if the Sixers give up on him after only one season because in general they don't do that with their draft picks.  They would probably want both our draft picks plus a position player for him if they did choose to trade him.  Fine if he returns to the form of a number one pick.  Terrible if he is a bust.

 

Expectations have to be adjusted for sure. I don't think Fultz can live up to the number 1 pick anymore, but he can still be a decent player. I'd be very surprised if he becomes a star. I don't think they'd trade him for the 12th or 13th pick especially after having to give up an additional high pick to get him, but that's not too far off from what his value is.

Interesting that Boston traded down from #1 to #3 and drafted Tatum. Tatum has played 383 minutes in the playoffs and averaged 18.3 points/game. Fultz has played 23 minutes in the playoffs. I think Boston knew that Fulz was not worth a #1 pick but that was the consensus going in to the draft.

 

They were very fortunate to know who the first 2 teams were going to take. The beauty of the deal was that not only did they get an extra likely lottery pick to move down they also get to save 1.5-2m against the cap because of the pay scale.