Honest question for CP3's apologists

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#1 Apr 30, 2017 4:57pm
VFHS
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Honest question for CP3's apologists

If Blake had only 13 points in a home Game 7 and only 1 point in the fourth quarter, what would you be saying about him right now?

Because those were CP0's stats, and I'm seeing a lot of posts about how it's not his fault and everyone else let him down. So I'm curious as to whether or not those same standards apply to Blake.

Apr 30, 2017 4:58pm
trapp76
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You have to actually play to have standards applied.

Apr 30, 2017 5:00pm
V-Ice
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A lot of blame should be at CP3, however what happen to the rest of the team?? 

Apr 30, 2017 5:01pm
VFHS
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trapp76 wrote:

You have to actually play to have standards applied.

Did Chris actually play? Because I barely heard his name called. Even Felton made more of an impact than the $210 Million Man did.

Apr 30, 2017 5:04pm
Hitnrun24
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If Blake was putting up 25-30 every game before that while getting little help from anyone else I would have given him a pass for having one bad game and it was a bad game, but he came up big all series before that

Apr 30, 2017 5:06pm
trapp76
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VFHS wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

You have to actually play to have standards applied.

Did Chris actually play? Because I barely heard his name called. Even Felton made more of an impact than the $210 Million Man did.

You heard his name called loud enough to disappear from this board entirely after game 3 and game 6 of this series.

Apr 30, 2017 5:05pm
trapp76
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I scored as many points as Blake did today.

Apr 30, 2017 5:08pm
VFHS
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trapp76 wrote:

VFHS wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

You have to actually play to have standards applied.

Did Chris actually play? Because I barely heard his name called. Even Felton made more of an impact than the $210 Million Man did.

You heard his name called loud enough to disappear from this board entirely after game 3 and game 6 of this series.

I didn't disappear at all. I even gave CP3 props for how he was playing for most of the series. Unfortunately, he reverted to choke mode down the stretch of Game 6 and all of Game 7. He is who he is: a playoff choker.

Apr 30, 2017 5:09pm
mannycoon
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There never would have been a game 7 without Paul, hell maybe not even a game 1.
Apr 30, 2017 5:10pm
VFHS
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trapp76 wrote:

I scored as many points as Blake did today.

Blake could have gone out there on his busted toe and scored more than a healthy CP0 did today.

Your boy choked. You can't blame Blake for that. Get over it and stop deflecting.

Apr 30, 2017 5:11pm
trapp76
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I had as many rebounds as Blake did today.

Apr 30, 2017 5:12pm
trapp76
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mannycoon wrote:
There never would have been a game 7 without Paul, hell maybe not even a game 1.
+1

Focus on Doc, not CP. Don't give Doc the distraction, he wants that.

Apr 30, 2017 5:19pm
Hitnrun24
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If you want to say Chris is not Lebron then fine no one will argue with that, but give any other superstar pretty much just DJ and they won't take you out of the first round either. How many other guys are winning with less than half a series from their leading scorer, their offensive scoring SG showing up for 1 game this series, having to carry an old broken down legend who is one of the worst players in the league, and a bunch of other defensive liabilities/mismatches? Not many, it's not like Utah was a joke of a team.

Apr 30, 2017 7:51pm
htownfan
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I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had , especially all the games that Utah had missing players as well.

I will give credit to CP3 and him being the best player on this team as currently constructed and  his leadership and heart that gives you guys a chance to succeed but there is just something about him that limits him...maybe he is just too small???

I also think its kind of hard for you to say he doesn't have much and making excuses for him when you were arguing earlier this season on how much help he had and how deep the team was.  I really wouldn't even be mad at CP3 if he left and went to another team to get a fresh start... You know he almost came to Houston to team up with Dwight and Harden>

You guys definitely need a new coach as Rivers hadnt done anything since he won in Boston....

Apr 30, 2017 8:29pm
trapp76
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htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Apr 30, 2017 8:31pm
Hitnrun24
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Chris Paul isn't meant to carry a team on his back. Whether that makes him a better player than James Harden or Russell Westbrook is in the eye of the beholder though. If you have a good team around all those guys and you need one to just manage the game not make mistakes and close it out for you sometimes when it's clutch time I would make the argument for Chris. You're partially right in that he's too small, too small to relentlessly attack a team for 40 min every game. When I made the argument that he had more help, that was the thought that he had Blake to take his turn putting the team on his shoulders which he needs more than those guys do. It's a skill set issue and I suppose the flaw is that when too much is missing he can't compensate enough and make up for it in the way that JH or WB do.

 

Without Blake on this team, James Harden would do more for the supporting cast because his driving would open things up for shooters more. The more I write the more I'm talking myself out of this, but my main point is I still feel like if you gave each guy his absolute ideal situation I would take CP3. If we went all out to surround him with his perfect complements in the way Morey did this year with Harden I think the Clippers would beat the Rockets, but I will admit that is very hard to do.

Apr 30, 2017 8:37pm
trapp76
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Whats funny about this is that the Clippers win the series if this shot doesnt go in. Then nobody is talking about CP and how supposedly "bad" he is:

https://youtu.be/RS5UopmnJtI

Just shows you how dumb all this "hot take" bullshit is.

Apr 30, 2017 8:52pm
ClipperSisyphus
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trapp76 wrote:

Whats funny about this is that the Clippers win the series if this shot doesnt go in. Then nobody is talking about CP and how supposedly "bad" he is:

https://youtu.be/RS5UopmnJtI

Just shows you how dumb all this "hot take" bullshit is.

It would just be delayed until we got thrashed by the Warriors.

Just to clarify, I don't think CP is bad. He played a helluva series. He just is not enough on his own, nor is the roster as currently constructed enough to get us to the level of truly elite teams like GSW, CLE or SAS.

Apr 30, 2017 9:07pm
htownfan
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trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Apr 30, 2017 9:20pm
htownfan
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trapp76 wrote:

Whats funny about this is that the Clippers win the series if this shot doesnt go in. Then nobody is talking about CP and how supposedly "bad" he is:

https://youtu.be/RS5UopmnJtI

Just shows you how dumb all this "hot take" bullshit is.

One shot changed the whole series? How do you know that for sure?  If he misses it maybe it makes them play that much harder on defense and the Clippers can't score and they still lose?

Apr 30, 2017 9:26pm
Hitnrun24
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htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

 

Strongly disagree on Thomas even on offense, not even factoring in being a liability on defense vs one of the very best in the league. Your entire list doesn't factor in the huge decline in defense this team would take, but just for the sake of offense I think on this team without Blake (or with a lesser version of him) I would agree that Curry, Westbrook and Harden would help the offense. They would give most of that back on defense, but they would probably get you a round further.

Apr 30, 2017 9:32pm
mannycoon
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Only guys I feel comfortable replacing Paul and feeling better about our chances beating the Jazz are Curry, Durant, Lebron, Leonard and Harden.  Westbrook is great his team was worse than the Jazz this year, he scores in bunches but his efficiency isn't great, he scored 37 ppg against Rockets, but he also shot .388/.265 against them and his team lost in five games.  Thomas can't defend anyone, I could only imagine how laughable a three guard line up of Crawford/Redick/Thomas would defensively.   Wall had a very good first round series, but it was the Hawks and really his resume post season and regular season is pretty light at this point in his career.  The Jazz are probably better than every team in the East this year other than the Cavs.

 

Apr 30, 2017 9:40pm
jnhuashopper
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Where was the Clippers in the first half.  CP3 had to get his team started and took on his own.  In that third quarter, Doc invested in getting Redick started and it backfired.   Then CP3 tried to do something and got hurt (fell awkwardly and wasn't the same).   He had a bad couple of quarters and not sure if it was his injury  But even if wasn't his injury, how often has Blake choked.  Not showing up in playoffs, not hitting the big shots, not scoring in the 4th quarter.  Blake can't carry a team on his own.  If you must have stats and evidence.  How many playoffs did Blake took any team without CP3?  How many times did CP3 took a team to the playoffs in his career?  If Blake can't even carry a team to a playoff, how can anyone say he will do better in these playoffs.  Moreover, we know Blake choke even more times in the playoffs.  He doesn't even want to take the big shots.  At least Austin and Jamal isn't afraid.

Apr 30, 2017 9:41pm
htownfan
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Hitnrun24 wrote:

Chris Paul isn't meant to carry a team on his back. Whether that makes him a better player than James Harden or Russell Westbrook is in the eye of the beholder though. If you have a good team around all those guys and you need one to just manage the game not make mistakes and close it out for you sometimes when it's clutch time I would make the argument for Chris. You're partially right in that he's too small, too small to relentlessly attack a team for 40 min every game. When I made the argument that he had more help, that was the thought that he had Blake to take his turn putting the team on his shoulders which he needs more than those guys do. It's a skill set issue and I suppose the flaw is that when too much is missing he can't compensate enough and make up for it in the way that JH or WB do.

 

Without Blake on this team, James Harden would do more for the supporting cast because his driving would open things up for shooters more. The more I write the more I'm talking myself out of this, but my main point is I still feel like if you gave each guy his absolute ideal situation I would take CP3. If we went all out to surround him with his perfect complements in the way Morey did this year with Harden I think the Clippers would beat the Rockets, but I will admit that is very hard to do.

Who gets perfect complements?  CP3 has had a couple more years in getting his complements right and he for sure has been playing with the Big 3 much longer than what Harden is playing with right now or longer than any core he has played?  Not sure how you can say he would beat Harden's Rockets with the perfect complements when he couldn't even do it with Harden having much less than what CP3 had 2 years ago? 

You talk about clutch time and game 7 to me is when the stars should shine.  How can you make the argument for CP3 tonight? I know stepped up in the San Antonio series.....

Apr 30, 2017 9:48pm
htownfan
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Hitnrun24 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

 

Strongly disagree on Thomas even on offense, not even factoring in being a liability on defense vs one of the very best in the league. Your entire list doesn't factor in the huge decline in defense this team would take, but just for the sake of offense I think on this team without Blake (or with a lesser version of him) I would agree that Curry, Westbrook and Harden would help the offense. They would give most of that back on defense, but they would probably get you a round further.

I hear you on Thomas but I just think his offense is so elite now and he is unstoppable....I also forgot to add Kawhi Leonard on the list as well..I dont know how I forgot about him because he would be at the top of my list.  I think he is the best player in the league right now. (thanks mannycoon for reminding me)

Apr 30, 2017 10:50pm
trapp76
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htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

Apr 30, 2017 10:55pm
jnhuashopper
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trapp76]</p> <p>[quote=htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

Fixed it for you.  I would only say Lebron or Durant Kawhi, that's it. Durant is a cupcake.  Soft as tissue, soft as Dwight and Blake.

Apr 30, 2017 10:59pm
ClipperSisyphus
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trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

If you want to talk trade value, I would trade CP in a second for AD, Embiid, Greek or KAT, maybe even Porzingis. These are all young guys you can build around and have a good 10 year run.

Apr 30, 2017 11:46pm
Olowokandi34
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I would love to see Harden and Curry play with Austin and JJ as the starting SG and SF.  I would just love to see Curry guard the opposing teams PG.  

May 1, 2017 4:09am
pro100
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jnhuashopper wrote:

Where was the Clippers in the first half.  CP3 had to get his team started and took on his own.  In that third quarter, Doc invested in getting Redick started and it backfired.   Then CP3 tried to do something and got hurt (fell awkwardly and wasn't the same).   He had a bad couple of quarters and not sure if it was his injury  But even if wasn't his injury, how often has Blake choked.  Not showing up in playoffs, not hitting the big shots, not scoring in the 4th quarter.  Blake can't carry a team on his own.  If you must have stats and evidence.  How many playoffs did Blake took any team without CP3?  How many times did CP3 took a team to the playoffs in his career?  If Blake can't even carry a team to a playoff, how can anyone say he will do better in these playoffs.  Moreover, we know Blake choke even more times in the playoffs.  He doesn't even want to take the big shots.  At least Austin and Jamal isn't afraid.

 

That's the thing, we're about to pay $300 million plus to two guys who rarely-if ever have 'blackout moments' where they carry and will the team to victory. CP3 had a hell of a game 6 but that's a rarity. You never hear things like, "Oh sh*t did you see Blake last night go for 20 in the 4th quarter to beat ___"  

Not every game of course but if we're not saying this at least ten times a season then I'm not throwing supermax deals out like candy.

May 1, 2017 6:36am
htownfan
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trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

trapp76 wrote:

htownfan wrote:

I would beg to differ on that because I believe there are quite a few players that could have gotten this team out of the the first round in the same situation and players that CP3 had

List them. No Lebron or Durant please.

Well Harden, Westbrook and Curry to start.  In Harden's and Westbrook's case they both are much better scorers than CP3 and just as good or even better in getting good shots for their teammates and what also separates those two is the ability to get to the line and getting folks into foul trouble and into the penalty earlier which allows the ability to score when the shots aren't falling,  It also gives their defense time to set up.

 I also believe Isiaih Thomas and John Wall as well.  All of these players are better than CP3 at this point of his career.  You took away Durant and Lebron..........

Disagree on all. None of those guys are even in the same league as CP defensively. We beat Curry and the Warriors in the playoffs, before he got Durant to help him, so no on him. Harden was on the bench when HOU beat the Clippers in game 6 two years ago, so no on him too. We beat a Kawhi led Spurs team in the playoffs, so no on him too.

I would only say Lebron or Durant, that's it. 

There you go bringing the homerism back into your evaluation.  Who cares if all those folks lost to Clippers the question was who could get the team as constructed right now out of the 1st round. And for what it is worth all the players you mentioned you beat have all gotten better since those defeats while CP3 arguably has regressed.  And I love how you downplay Harden because he was on the bench for 1 quarter that series but you discount all the other games he played in that series,  He did  cement the win with his stellar play in game 7 when he had to close out the series, Remember that game 6 wasn't a clinching win. He was still the MVP of that series.

Those 3 players i mentioned may not be in the same league defensively but CP3 is also not in the same league offensively.  All 3 guys have averaged at least 29.0 in a season which is 10 more points than Cp3 has ever averaged while playing with the Clippers.  His best season is a mere 23 points a game early in his career with New Orleans.  The 3 mentioned are elite scorers which is what was sorely needed in this series.  And Leonard by far is much better than CP3 right now.  He affects the game so much on both ends of the court. He has the ring and Finals MVP to back that up as well.  He scares me the most and its gonna be a serious task in slowing him down tonight.